Tallest man ever - 272 cm.
Shortest man ever - 54 cm.
Tallest woman ever - 231 cm.
Shortest woman ever - 59 cm.
Dumpster Fire Discussions
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
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Shortest man ever - 54 cm.
Tallest woman ever - 231 cm.
Shortest woman ever - 59 cm.
It seems to me that, setting aside the transphobes/TERFs/Trumpists, the folks that are still at least iffy about transwomen competing in womens' sports hold that opinion because they don't understand just how sustained HRT impacts the body and how much it takes away "male advantages'; haven't considered other advantages genetic differences and even social differences (having $$$ for training equipment, having more time available to train, having a stable home life with good diet and adequate sleep schedule, etc etc) can provide; they still have a deep-seated notion that being transgender isn't the sort of fundamental born-with-it identity that transgender people (eventually) figure out that it is and cis folk tend to accept either because they're already open-minded or after they're able to have meaningful conversations with a trans person; and related to that last point they don't understand how painful it is to a transgender person to be either excluded from an activity entirely purely because they're trans, or continuously misgendered in order to participate in the activity.
sophie
Break My Heart
Lia Thomas, an elite top-10 nationally ranked swimmer pre-transition was not able to so much as even sniff Kate Ledecky’s collegiate 500-yard freestyle record after starting hormones, which is itself 20 seconds off the men’s record. If any trans athlete is going to “join an elite [undifferentiated] field” it’s probably going to be a trans man.
I do, once again, appreciate you all completely disregarding what I wrote and substituting it with a bunch of made up **** that has nothing to do with what I’m actually arguing though.
João III
King
Not sure if it's been discussed previously or not, but does anyone have any thoughts on the statement from Réka György, a 2016 Olympian, speaking out against the decision to allow Thomas to compete?
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sophie
Break My Heart
Again, the question to ask is why this person is upset about this one particular woman being faster than her and not the 15 other women who were also faster than her. Did they not also “rob her of the opportunity to compete?” Where are the diatribes against them? The simple fact is that sport is a competition, there will always be a 17th fastest swimmer, even in a world where trans athletes are not allowed to compete. If Gyorgy cannot handle the idea that someone out there is faster than her, then perhaps sport is not the right fit for her and she should find a less competitive hobby.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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i would venture a guess that politicians have a few other questionable incentives in this regard. "policing for profit" covers some of that. between asset forfeiture and prison labor, i suspect more than just police abolitionists are against changing it. a few states have recently passed legislation against forfeiture, but only a few, and to my knowledge none are really doing much to address the incentives created by prison labor. maybe there are enough $$$ kickbacks to make leaving oversight in the hands of the people being overseen profitable...
i don't disagree that this is a problem. i dislike the way this incident was represented in media. i don't think it's wrong to conclude the officer screwed up, though there is room for debate on when + how much.
i guess that most people will fire multiple times. it seems most people even in conventional wars will still aim in their general direction/center mass and shoot a bunch, rather than trying to economize shots or carefully confirming kills. some of that is just practicality, because the other guys will consistently shoot back in war, but not all of it.
it makes sense on some level too. if you're pulling the trigger at all, you're making a commitment with enormous weight that can't be taken back. "if you draw a gun, be prepared to use it", as the saying goes. you're already crossed any moral/ethical/legal lines you were going to cross with the first shot, so raising probability of success in firing/not trying to think about whether 1 or 5 bullets is enough in a split second is probably the default.
Or to put it another way, nobody in the olympics is anything but a few standard deviations above average for physical variation in the first place. merely above average men and below are filtered out, same for women. thus the highest performing women will have no chance against even typical male olympians, because of the higher baseline.
people at the highest levels of athletics are not merely hard workers or merely talented, they tend to be both. even head cases like randy moss or terrell owens in the nfl had meticulous detail in their route running and consistency of execution that you can't just know via talent. many receivers about moss' speed fail to last more than 1-2 years. many receivers with the size/speed combo of owens never get open and barely play. despite the reputations of those two and their antics, they did put the time in, and their talent carried them to places where people who put similar time in could never reach.
same goes for women in the olympics, if competing against people who undergo male puberty. the physical advantage is insurmountable, if the latter puts in similar time. how much we care is a matter of preference, but if you want a level playing field this will prevent it for the same reason that letting only some people use steroids will prevent it.
She has more stake in that particular decision than most, but her take is no different and no more well-informed than that of anyone else opposed, so not worth discussing specifically.
João III
King
The simple fact is that the decision to allow Thomas to compete directly led to someone who would have otherwise finished 16th dropping to 17th. Seems intellectually dishonesty (borderline absurdist) to pretend that a competition with a swimmer who had to be granted special dispensation to compete is somehow no different than any other competition
György competed in women's swimming longer than Thomas, but she's not sufficiently well-informed to speak on women competing in women's swimming? Her lived experience doesn't matter? Is there anyone opposed who is sufficiently well-informed?
sophie
Break My Heart
…she wasn’t granted special dispensation? She competed throughout the season under the already-established rules for trans eligibility, qualified for the championships, and then NCAA swimming clarified that they wouldn’t change the rules for eligibility in advance of the start of the championships. A “special dispensation” would have been to go forward with an abrupt rule change even though it would disqualify one of the favorites to win.
João III
King
USA Swimming adopted the rule immediately. The NCAA then the postponed adopting any rule change to protect one person in particular. What's the phrase... six of one, half dozen of the other? Not to mention the reason they're a favorite is the same reason they needed a rule change
sophie
Break My Heart
Generally in sports it is considered bad form for a league to change its rules in the middle of the season, especially when those rules affect player eligibility and most especially when that rule change would single out one specific frontrunner. It is perfectly reasonable under such circumstances to refrain from rule changes until the end of a season. I mean you make so much hay out of poor Gyorky missing out on championships in her last year of eligibility because of something completely out of her control when she worked so hard and followed all the rules to that point, but don’t seem willing to apply the same standard in the other direction. Wonder why that might be.
And the rule change would have specified that an athlete needed to be on antiandrogens for 36 months. Thomas had been on hormones for 33 months at the time of the championships, I can’t imagine an extra 3 months of spiro at that point would have changed very much.
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
3 Months? That's the difference people are making a fuss about? Another three months and it'd be no problem?
People are ridiculous.
People are ridiculous.
João III
King
The same rules that have since been recognized as insufficient to maintain competitive balance? Those rules?
I don't know, why don't you tell me?
Certainly wouldn't have made as much difference as testosterone-fueled puberty
This seems worthwhile to post, as I don't think you have much idea what happens or doesn't happen because of testosterone or estrogen:
Berzerker
Deity
I didn't say Lia Thomas was the fastest, just an example of a trans female swimmer. If "The Mountain" took hormones would it be fair for her to compete against women? If the 10 strongest men took hormones and went up against the 10 strongest women on hormones, who would lift more weight?
Well, thats one metric.
João III
King
Do either testosterone or estrogen have effects on the human body during puberty?This seems worthwhile to post, as I don't think you have much idea what happens or doesn't happen because of testosterone or estrogen:
sophie
Break My Heart
If Gregor Clegane were a cis woman with the same build and proportions, would it be fair for her to compete against women?
Yes, that’s why Lia Thomas got so much slower after she started HRT.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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my impression is that hrt will reduce capability, but not to baseline of pre-puberty development. having male vs female puberty still seems to confer an athletic advantage from my understanding, though less than just allowing a man to compete against women.
this seems to be in dispute, and the answer to that dispute is what informs policy ultimately (or what should, anyway).
i do find this interesting when it comes to non-athletic competitions, such as chess or pro gaming. it's less clear to me why these should stratify men vs women at all, and the few trans cases i've heard about haven't generate any controversy (at least, not in the sense of questioning whether the competition is fair). Absent the factor of physical advantage, separating men and women in competition seems arbitrary or implies odd things if we say it isn't arbitrary.
these questions also create some oddities at the margins. would a 6'3 woman be more or less competitive in men's nba than a 5'0 man? i'm not sure, they'd both probably be close to useless. similarly, someone who is too tall and thus too heavy will likely struggle with horse racing or long distance at elite levels (6'1 people being effective in distance running is considered exceptional). you could reasonably say these things are also unfair playing fields, but life isn't fair. you can't control for talent across the board.
sports tend to draw the line at hormones, though. while hrt is fundamentally different from taking performance enhancers, there's still debate over whether it actually can reduce capability to be identical to biological female competitors. i'm not convinced based on what i've seen.
this seems to be in dispute, and the answer to that dispute is what informs policy ultimately (or what should, anyway).
i do find this interesting when it comes to non-athletic competitions, such as chess or pro gaming. it's less clear to me why these should stratify men vs women at all, and the few trans cases i've heard about haven't generate any controversy (at least, not in the sense of questioning whether the competition is fair). Absent the factor of physical advantage, separating men and women in competition seems arbitrary or implies odd things if we say it isn't arbitrary.
these questions also create some oddities at the margins. would a 6'3 woman be more or less competitive in men's nba than a 5'0 man? i'm not sure, they'd both probably be close to useless. similarly, someone who is too tall and thus too heavy will likely struggle with horse racing or long distance at elite levels (6'1 people being effective in distance running is considered exceptional). you could reasonably say these things are also unfair playing fields, but life isn't fair. you can't control for talent across the board.
sports tend to draw the line at hormones, though. while hrt is fundamentally different from taking performance enhancers, there's still debate over whether it actually can reduce capability to be identical to biological female competitors. i'm not convinced based on what i've seen.
