Economic Misinformation

Hi punkbass,

There was a poster on here awhile ago who would do nothing but post Mises.org posts with no follow up or original thought. Trying to talk to him was frustrating. This is why folks give you a knee jerk reaction.

However, that said, as the only practicing economist on these boards, that you think we start with untenable axioms is itself an untenable axiom. I am happy to talk about economics as a practice but the Austrian perspective is very frustrating when taken to the extreme (normally uber-distrustful of models). I personally always have healthy skepticism when I read a paper's model and results (in fact, I've published some comments in journals refuting some paper's claimed findings) but these are not the normal paper, somewhat an outlying minority of such.

Also, there are a ton of economic disciplines. Not all economists focus on the micro or macro economy.

Lastly, the top 10 list you listed above is demonstrably false on all accounts. Cutlass did a good job rebuking.

As you are a practising economist, I would be quite interested to know what you think the epistemological underpinnings of your field are. What is the nature of economic propositions? And what is the basis for deciding their validity? Further, what is the method of inquiry utilised by today's 'mainstream' economists?

(I realise that this may not be the best place for this discussion, so we should take this it to another thread if it grows too specialised.)
 
Just out of curiosity, on what do you base the accusation of 'pseudo-science'?

Maybe that Austrian economics is not science, but did set out to be?
 
:lol: I agree that modelling is an issue, though, especially in Economics. People's goals appear fundamentally unpredictable, to me.

In the aggregate, a lot of what people will do can be understood if you build the models right. Not that they always are.
 
In the aggregate, a lot of what people will do can be understood if you build the models right. Not that they always are.

It appears that way now, but I'm inclined to attribute this predictability to the way advertising plays on people's insecurities and tells them what to buy more than any other facet of human nature.
 
Could you outline what you think the actual central tenets of Economics are, or should be?

I'll answer this as what I think the central tenets of being an Economist are

1) Know thy data
2) Recognize that a general model of something likely has no value in analyzing theory. Solow says , what makes theory, theory, is a lack of reality. Always try to explain behavior with as few variables as needed.
3) Explicitly state up front your model's assumptions. When concluding, discuss what happens if said assumptions are violated (How important are they?)
4) Not finding an effect is just as significant as finding an effect
5) Economics is a soft science. Let's not pretend we're physics or something.


Central Tenets of Economics
1) Incentives Matter
2) Demand declines as price rises
3) The macroeconomy is really freaking complex. Microfoundations are a good start, but only a start
4) Most folks know very little about economics. Best to ignore the masses.
 
As you are a practising economist, I would be quite interested to know what you think the epistemological underpinnings of your field are. What is the nature of economic propositions? And what is the basis for deciding their validity? Further, what is the method of inquiry utilised by today's 'mainstream' economists?

(I realise that this may not be the best place for this discussion, so we should take this it to another thread if it grows too specialised.)

Ya, practicing economist and all that.

But this is very techinical, best to pm me
 
While I would consider myself Austrian, I disagree with a few of the points, but more so with the mainstream, simply because of things like 'utility functions' being, really silly.

1) Prosperity comes from capital, capital from savings. Saving is not spending. Also, all state spending hurts the economy due to its source (taxation is stealing from one pocket to give to another, borrowing bids up interest rates and inflation sends false signals)

2) I oppose state regulations. However, I would prefer a state which limited murder to one which condoned it. Of course, banning murder is preferable. Thus fractional reserve banking (i.e. fraud) should be stopped, or capital requirements as high as [politically] possible. If you think more regulation is needed, what more regulation than "if you fail to serve consumers and society, you will go bankrupt"?

3) Taxation causes dead-weight loss. And coercing someone to spend 40% of their time working for you does not mean you are 'under-taxing' at all.

4) Almost self-evident.

5) It can distort unemployment figures, but it does not solve the issue (compare the 1919 crash to 1939).

6) A major piece in the Austrian theory on the business cycle.

7) And inflation means that seeing what people want is harder.

8) State action causes distortions away from what free individuals want to do, so any action is bad action (not a proof, but my opinion).

9) Fractional reserve banking is fraud. Bailouts are EXACTLY the incentives econ 101 would teach people to avoid.

10) Gold is good, not sacred. And I'd like to see a disproof of non-fiat money.


And does anyone have anything to say against the Austrian methodology (in that, we take the axiom of 'man acts' and work from there)? or is it just the conclusions?
 
10) Gold is God’s money.

Huh, that's strange I thought Bill3000 would beat me to jumping on this:
James 5:3 said:
Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!

Peter 1:7 said:
so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Peter 1:18 said:
knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,

Matthew 10:9 said:
"Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.

Matthew 23:17 said:
"You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?"

Acts 17:29 said:
Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold...

Corinthians 3:11-13 said:
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
 
3) Taxation causes dead-weight loss. And coercing someone to spend 40% of their time working for you does not mean you are 'under-taxing' at all.
No one has to work 40% of the time anymore. Due to Government regulation.
 
While I would consider myself Austrian, I disagree with a few of the points, but more so with the mainstream, simply because of things like 'utility functions' being, really silly.

1) Prosperity comes from capital, capital from savings. Saving is not spending. Also, all state spending hurts the economy due to its source (taxation is stealing from one pocket to give to another, borrowing bids up interest rates and inflation sends false signals)

All investment is in the expectation of sales. If your customers have no money, you will not invest, no matter how much savings you have. That's what the real world does. Right now many businesses and banks have plenty of cash. But are not investing it because of lack of customer.

State spending does not inherently hurt the economy. In fact, most of it helps the economy. Taxation is not theft. And no one can be expected to be taken seriously if they claim it is.


2) I oppose state regulations. However, I would prefer a state which limited murder to one which condoned it. Of course, banning murder is preferable. Thus fractional reserve banking (i.e. fraud) should be stopped, or capital requirements as high as [politically] possible. If you think more regulation is needed, what more regulation than "if you fail to serve consumers and society, you will go bankrupt"?


Regulations to stop theft and the destruction of life and property are bad?

The thing that is the foundation of capitalist economics is bad?


3) Taxation causes dead-weight loss. And coercing someone to spend 40% of their time working for you does not mean you are 'under-taxing' at all.


Americans aren't taxed anywhere near 40%.


4) Almost self-evident.


Very badly misunderstood.


5) It can distort unemployment figures, but it does not solve the issue (compare the 1919 crash to 1939).


It can if you employ enough of them at high enough wages.


6) A major piece in the Austrian theory on the business cycle.


Only the Supply Siders say you can.


7) And inflation means that seeing what people want is harder.


Inflation isn't really relevant to this.


8) State action causes distortions away from what free individuals want to do, so any action is bad action (not a proof, but my opinion).


Most of what the state does is correct flaws in what the market does in the absence of the state.


9) Fractional reserve banking is fraud. Bailouts are EXACTLY the incentives econ 101 would teach people to avoid.


Fractional reserve banking is what the free market does to create a foundation for capitalism. Why are "free market" Austrians against free market capitalism?


10) Gold is good, not sacred. And I'd like to see a disproof of non-fiat money.


I don't follow what you mean by this.


And does anyone have anything to say against the Austrian methodology (in that, we take the axiom of 'man acts' and work from there)? or is it just the conclusions?


I don't follow what you mean by this either.






From OP said:
The Austrian Economics School’s Commandments plus :From : link

1) You cannot spend your way out of a recession
2) You cannot regulate the economy into oblivion and expect it to function
3) You cannot tax people and businesses to the point of near slavery and expect them to keep producing
4) You cannot create an abundance of money out of thin air without making all that paper worthless
5) The government cannot make up for rising unemployment by just hiring all the out of work people to be bureaucrats or send them unemployment checks forever
6) You cannot live beyond your means indefinitely
7) The economy must actually produce something others are willing to buy
8) Every government bureaucrat should keep the following motto in mind when attempting to influence the economy: “First, do no harm!”
9) Central bank-supported fractional reserve banking is an economically distorting, ethically questionable activity. In particular, no government should ever do anything to save any bank from the full consequences of a bank run, no matter what the short-term consequences.
10) Gold is God’s money.[/QUOTE]
 
My question is, why do you say it is not a science?
Because it's not? Austrian economics is a philosophic exercise. It takes base premises and builds logical conclusions around them. They like to take credit when empirical evidence matches their ideology study, but in all they care more about their premises than they do reality.

While I would consider myself Austrian, I disagree with a few of the points, but more so with the mainstream, simply because of things like 'utility functions' being, really silly.

1) Prosperity comes from capital, capital from savings. Saving is not spending. Also, all state spending hurts the economy due to its source (taxation is stealing from one pocket to give to another, borrowing bids up interest rates and inflation sends false signals)

2) I oppose state regulations. However, I would prefer a state which limited murder to one which condoned it. Of course, banning murder is preferable. Thus fractional reserve banking (i.e. fraud) should be stopped, or capital requirements as high as [politically] possible. If you think more regulation is needed, what more regulation than "if you fail to serve consumers and society, you will go bankrupt"?

3) Taxation causes dead-weight loss. And coercing someone to spend 40% of their time working for you does not mean you are 'under-taxing' at all.

4) Almost self-evident.

5) It can distort unemployment figures, but it does not solve the issue (compare the 1919 crash to 1939).

6) A major piece in the Austrian theory on the business cycle.

7) And inflation means that seeing what people want is harder.

8) State action causes distortions away from what free individuals want to do, so any action is bad action (not a proof, but my opinion).

9) Fractional reserve banking is fraud. Bailouts are EXACTLY the incentives econ 101 would teach people to avoid.

10) Gold is good, not sacred. And I'd like to see a disproof of non-fiat money.


And does anyone have anything to say against the Austrian methodology (in that, we take the axiom of 'man acts' and work from there)? or is it just the conclusions?

See how half of this is ideology? Taxation is theft, FRB is fraud, regulation is wrong, state action is bad action (anyone who has ever said "I'll only do it if you do it" knows what nonsense this is)...

Austrian economics had a noble purpose and a sinister one. The noble purpose was continued by mainstream economists who incorporated what value the Austrians brought to the economics table (in the late 19th century it was a lot, particularly their theories of value as separate from labor-time expended). The sinister one plays out today when Mises University functions as a far-right think-tank using only Austrian economics, and none of the economics that came later unless it not only used the same underpinnings, but supported the same ideological conclusion.
 
And does anyone have anything to say against the Austrian methodology (in that, we take the axiom of 'man acts' and work from there)? or is it just the conclusions?

Yes. You can't axiomize human behavior - those are empirical questions for the behavioral sciences, such as psychology and cognitive science. If experiments deviate from what is expected from your axioms, then naturally your axioms are false.
 
No one has to work 40% of the time anymore. Due to Government regulation.
The states in the west control >40% of GDP. This must be paid for. This means ~40% of people's paychecks are taken, and thus they lose that amount of their life

All investment is in the expectation of sales. If your customers have no money, you will not invest, no matter how much savings you have. That's what the real world does. Right now many businesses and banks have plenty of cash. But are not investing it because of lack of customer.

Yes, but cheap credit encourages long term projects, as they assume that spending will pick up eventually (eg. mining), or the deflation lowers prices until the customers can spend.

State spending does not inherently hurt the economy. In fact, most of it helps the economy. Taxation is not theft. And no one can be expected to be taken seriously if they claim it is.

Taxation is theft. That is a fact, and while not the crux of my argument, it is important to understand that coercion is involved. And spending only helps in the way that I can increase the level of a pool by moving water around it.

Regulations to stop theft and the destruction of life and property are bad?

The thing that is the foundation of capitalist economics is bad?

I oppose the state, and wish common/merchant law to decide these things (which I can safely assume they will). In the context of a state, I wish it to ban violations of person, property and contract and nothing else.

Americans aren't taxed anywhere near 40%.

As I said, >40% of GDP by government must be paid for.

Very badly misunderstood.

Inflation causes higher prices, and is paid for by taking from those who get the new money last. what have i misunderstood?

It can if you employ enough of them at high enough wages.

So mis-allocations of resources can be solved through higher wages... How?

Only the Supply Siders say you can.

Not sure what you mean. Austrians =/= Supply Siders, or are you making an argument about Supply Siders believing in nonsense?

Inflation isn't really relevant to this.

New money makes it appear as though there are more savings than there are, so it pushes down interest rates (temporarily), but entrepreneurs thus make bad decision (I would not have bought this factory at 5%, but did at 2%

Most of what the state does is correct flaws in what the market does in the absence of the state.

First, this encourages a monarchy/oligarchy, and from what I know, you're a democrat. Second, how do they or you know?

Fractional reserve banking is what the free market does to create a foundation for capitalism. Why are "free market" Austrians against free market capitalism?

Free Market =/= Capitalism. Capitalism is Reagan and Thatcher creating laws which benefit the rich (owners of capital) at the expense of the working class (hey, I sound like a Marxist). FRB is fraud by nature, just like a valet running a taxicab service is fraud.

I don't follow what you mean by this.

Gold is good, but not for any religious/ideological reason (just it is good practically, just like candy bars are tasty, rather than bark). I was asking what is wrong with gold.

I don't follow what you mean by this either.

Basically, why do you disagree with the Austrians? Is it the methodology or what?


See how half of this is ideology? Taxation is theft, FRB is fraud, regulation is wrong, state action is bad action (anyone who has ever said "I'll only do it if you do it" knows what nonsense this is)...

Austrian economics had a noble purpose and a sinister one. The noble purpose was continued by mainstream economists who incorporated what value the Austrians brought to the economics table (in the late 19th century it was a lot, particularly their theories of value as separate from labor-time expended). The sinister one plays out today when Mises University functions as a far-right think-tank using only Austrian economics, and none of the economics that came later unless it not only used the same underpinnings, but supported the same ideological conclusion.

Taxation is theft, just like the draft is slavery. FRB is fraud (valet/taxicab as above). The other two are the conclusions from the Austrian methodology. Austrian economics has advanced, but I fail to see anything being sinister. If you have a point you think they should incorporate, pray tell, but maybe they just thought it was wrong (like Muslims reject Scientology).
 
Taxation is theft. That is a fact, and while not the crux of my argument, it is important to understand that coercion is involved. And spending only helps in the way that I can increase the level of a pool by moving water around it.
Taxation is not coercion as you consent to pay it on the expectation that you will recieve benefits in return, such as a civilized society. If you feel you are being coerced into paying taxes, move to a place with lower taxes or Somalia, where they pay no taxes.
 
The states in the west control >40% of GDP. This must be paid for. This means ~40% of people's paychecks are taken, and thus they lose that amount of their life
Because they burn these paychecks afterwards? :huh:

Your insistence on meaningless slogans like "taxation is theft" only shows that for you, ideology comes first and economics second.
 
The states in the west control >40% of GDP. This must be paid for. This means ~40% of people's paychecks are taken, and thus they lose that amount of their life
Uh...no. That's not how time is measured. 40% of your time is 9.6 hours a day, unless there is relativistic distortions.
 
Apologies in advance to readers for breaking it up, but the formatting was already like this.

The states in the west control >40% of GDP. This must be paid for. This means ~40% of people's paychecks are taken, and thus they lose that amount of their life
You can make the same argument that any profit someone makes on someone else's labor is stealing value from their work. It's better to not call things theft that aren't theft. We pay taxes to create a social, communal, functioning society. We get a lot out of that. Psychologically, the happiest societies are the most communal, and the modern states that support community and have the happiest people are in European welfare states with free markets and high taxes. If you want to say that happiness is irrelevant, and only freedom as the absence of constraint matters, then fine, but that underpinning philosophy is one of the flaws of Austrian economics, since both empirically and logically that freedom is impossible to obtain, and doesn't serve a purpose outside itself beyond a certain degree.

Not sure what you mean. Austrians =/= Supply Siders, or are you making an argument about Supply Siders believing in nonsense?
Supply side economics is bogus, and the Austrians are absolutely supply siders. They just don't have that title because that title was given to their intellectual children, the Chicagoans.




Free Market =/= Capitalism. Capitalism is Reagan and Thatcher creating laws which benefit the rich (owners of capital) at the expense of the working class (hey, I sound like a Marxist). FRB is fraud by nature, just like a valet running a taxicab service is fraud.
Ignoring your FRB complaint, this is totally true. The free market isn't capitalism, and a perfect free market shares a lot in common with socialism/communism. The problem with a perfectly free market, though, is an utter lack of profitability. This isn't a bad thing intrinsically, but personally I think growth is still good.



Taxation is theft, just like the draft is slavery. FRB is fraud (valet/taxicab as above). The other two are the conclusions from the Austrian methodology. Austrian economics has advanced, but I fail to see anything being sinister. If you have a point you think they should incorporate, pray tell, but maybe they just thought it was wrong (like Muslims reject Scientology).
Muslims reject Scientology... how apt an analogy :ack: what's sinister is that the "Austrian methodology" is built on a foundation of favoring the rich and powerful. Their starting premises are inherently going to succeed in coming to those conclusions and rejecting the conclusions that more social-accounting political economists, simply because they picked the underlying principles to engender those conclusions! They are then able to sell this political economy by dressing it up in visceral words like "freedom" and and write books like "The road to serfdom", a book that is 8 inches from my left hand.
 
The states in the west control >40% of GDP. This must be paid for. This means ~40% of people's paychecks are taken, and thus they lose that amount of their life

The US governments control much less than 40%. And the countries that do control over 40% provide more and better services than the US without hindering private economic growth.



Yes, but cheap credit encourages long term projects, as they assume that spending will pick up eventually (eg. mining), or the deflation lowers prices until the customers can spend.


Which doesn't affect that facts that in the absence of making the lower classes better off, those investments will never happen.



Taxation is theft. That is a fact, and while not the crux of my argument, it is important to understand that coercion is involved. And spending only helps in the way that I can increase the level of a pool by moving water around it.


Taxation is not theft. It is paying your bills. Saying taxation is theft just means that you do not comprehend the situation. And so why should anyone take you seriously?



I oppose the state, and wish common/merchant law to decide these things (which I can safely assume they will). In the context of a state, I wish it to ban violations of person, property and contract and nothing else.


Then you need the state to regulate.


As I said, >40% of GDP by government must be paid for.


The US doesn't tax that high. And the countries that do get better standards of living because of it. Without lower business growth.



Inflation causes higher prices, and is paid for by taking from those who get the new money last. what have i misunderstood?



That there usually isn't very much inflation. And what there is, the nature of the capitalist economic system makes necessary.



So mis-allocations of resources can be solved through higher wages... How?


The misallocations of resources is that wages are too low.



Not sure what you mean. Austrians =/= Supply Siders, or are you making an argument about Supply Siders believing in nonsense?


Supply siders are the only people saying that we can live beyond our means indefinitely. So to make this a major point of Austrian theory is a waste of effort.



New money makes it appear as though there are more savings than there are, so it pushes down interest rates (temporarily), but entrepreneurs thus make bad decision (I would not have bought this factory at 5%, but did at 2%


There is almost always some inflation. The market understands this and plans it in.



First, this encourages a monarchy/oligarchy, and from what I know, you're a democrat. Second, how do they or you know?


First, no it does not. How do I know that the government acts to respond to market flaws? Because I pay attention to what the market and government does.


Free Market =/= Capitalism. Capitalism is Reagan and Thatcher creating laws which benefit the rich (owners of capital) at the expense of the working class (hey, I sound like a Marxist). FRB is fraud by nature, just like a valet running a taxicab service is fraud.


Ummmm, no. Not at all. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, and the use of money(capital) to construct and operate the means of production. Free markets are the free decisions on the exchange of goods and services where the transactions are not coercive. Banking is the foundation of that. No banking, no capitalism.


Gold is good, but not for any religious/ideological reason (just it is good practically, just like candy bars are tasty, rather than bark). I was asking what is wrong with gold.


Gold sucks as money. It's fine as jewelry.



Basically, why do you disagree with the Austrians? Is it the methodology or what?


I'm sure if someone were to make a case for Austrian economics that doesn't include craziness like "taxation is theft", or "externalities don't matter", or "the business cycle is only caused by government", or "money should be gold", or "fractional reserve banking is fraud", then we might find some areas for interesting conversation.


Taxation is theft, just like the draft is slavery. FRB is fraud (valet/taxicab as above). The other two are the conclusions from the Austrian methodology. Austrian economics has advanced, but I fail to see anything being sinister. If you have a point you think they should incorporate, pray tell, but maybe they just thought it was wrong (like Muslims reject Scientology).


Your 2 points there are so hopelessly wrong that you can't understand economics until you stop believing these things.
 
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