Either there is a God, or there isn't.

[El_Machinae]

Except the vague notions of failing to improve themselves when they could have and having lived a lie.

But, we often fail to improve ourselves for other reasons, and we often live a lie in other ways. It's not really that huge of an opportunity cost.

 

[The Last Conformist]

What does atheists lose if the Christian God does exist? Spending eternity with a royal *******.

 

[MobBoss]

Except the vague notions of failing to improve themselves when they could have and having lived a lie.

Ok, then you tell me. How does one impove upon the standard that Jesus set for us? Because that is the christian goal. I personally dont think you can.

 

[El_Machinae]

The "failing to improve themselves" mostly refers to the self-destructive behaviour that people do due to faith.

Similarily, following buddhist precepts can benefit you too, even if I(we) were wrong.

 

[MobBoss]

The "failing to improve themselves" mostly refers to the self-destructive behaviour that people do due to faith.

What do you mean by self-destructive faith? Jesus taught of love and service to others, not in being self-destructive.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well; for a quick example, there are healthy ways to fast and unhealthy ways to fast. I think that healthy fasting is clearly fine, but sometimes faith causes people to fast in unhealthy ways. That would be an example of self-destructive actions, due to faith - unless the faith is correct, the actions lead to harm.

I also regularly deal with people who have been incarcerated because they've chosen to act on their faith. If their faith is in something that's not true, then they are worse off for having followed their faith.

 

[Sidhe]

What does atheists lose if the Christian God does exist? Spending eternity with a royal *******.

You're only making it worse for yourself, you know.

I don't see as how you need a religion at all to improve yourself, but let's say for argument sake that you do, is there a real improvement in mankind because of it, and how could you know either way? For an individual perhaps there is a great beenfit, if he is true to his beliefs, but it takes one heretic or self righteous individual to stir up trouble and then thousands pay in blood .

Buddhism's only goal is self improvement, without direction from a God and it seems to work from a pascifistic point of view which is why I like it, you can't use your religion as an excuse to do evil.

Perhaps if there were but one religion and one God, or even an overwhelming concensus amongst a religion to follow it's core tennats, then religion would be a positive boon, otherwise I'm not so sure. Suffice to say you could debate the issue of the positives and negatives all day and never find an answer, so for me at least I generally chose not to take a stand firmly for or against, which explains my general knowledge of relgion but my fear of it and hence my agnosticism, which is of course banned technically in this thread.

Sorry I wondered OT, just trying to get my head straight on what it is I believe.

 

[Rad Chris]

What do you mean by self-destructive faith? Jesus taught of love and service to others, not in being self-destructive.

Lets not limit this to Vanilla Christianity. Jehovah's Witness belief prevents them from accepting blood transfusions. Thats pretty self-destructive.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Ok, then you tell me. How does one impove upon the standard that Jesus set for us? Because that is the christian goal. I personally dont think you can.

I don't think it's hard to improve on the moral standard set by a guy who told his followers to hate their parents.

 

[Narz]

What do you mean by self-destructive faith? Jesus taught of love and service to others, not in being self-destructive.

http://www.untamedlife.com/book/chapter6.php
Read the whole book, it will give you a fresh perspective.

 

[The Last Conformist]

http://www.untamedlife.com/book/chapter6.php
Read the whole book, it will give you a fresh perspective.

If a guy doesn't take himself more seriously than that he labels his stuff "Rational-Emotional Integrative Updating", I'm sure aint gonna take him seriously enough to read what he has to say.

 

[Narz]

If a guy doesn't take himself more seriously than that he labels his stuff "Rational-Emotional Integrative Updating", I'm sure aint gonna take him seriously enough to read what he has to say.

Haha, so posting on a gaming forum > writing a self-help book.

 

[Narz]

By the way, what's your avatar?

 

[El_Machinae]

See the Alternative Member Pictures thread.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Haha, so posting on a gaming forum > writing a self-help book.

Self-help books are the second lowest tier of writing.

 

[atreas]

http://www.untamedlife.com/book/chapter6.php
Read the whole book, it will give you a fresh perspective.

I hope you put this link as a joke; judging from his writtings, this guy is a serious candidate for treatment. Keep on reading such unbiased books. Then close your eyes and imagine that he didn't write all these BS just to provoke and thus earn fame for himself.

 

[Narz]

I hope you put this link as a joke; judging from his writtings, this guy is a serious candidate for treatment. Keep on reading such unbiased books. Then close your eyes and imagine that he didn't write all these BS just to provoke and thus earn fame for himself.

Haha, of course. He's as ridiculous as Ayn Rand but still a fun reactionary to read and a good counterbalance to the fundies. And it's not as if he doesn't have a few good points.

 

[Narz]

Self-help books are the second lowest tier of writing.

But one of the best ways to make money. It's very fasionable and everyone is screwed up these days.

But the way, what's the lowest?

 

[Birdjaguar]

But the way, what's the lowest?

Bodice ripper romances perhaps?

 

[warpus]

If I remember well (how can I forget, given the origin of the word?), agnostic means "the one that doesn't know something" and NOT "the one that doesn't believe something". Do you know something different?

An agnostic is someone who either claims that it is impossible to know whether God exists - or who is sitting on the fence and doesn't have a belief either way.

So if you believe that a God exists, you can't be agnostic.