Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[Sommerswerd]

On that note, Pelosi is sitting/standing next to Gavin Newsom at the DNC right now listening to Kamala Harris' acceptance speech.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Harris just gave a statement on Gaza in her speech. She got some boos/jeers for some of her Palestinian sympathetic statements. I'm interested to hear the reactions.

 

[Lexicus]

Her speech on Gaza was absolute dishonest horsehockey, the same lies the US has been telling for 30 years.

There was other problematic right-wing stuff too but it doesn't matter, no change on Gaza = no vote for her from me. Oh well.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Her speech on Gaza was absolute dishonest horsehockey, the same lies the US has been telling for 30 years.

There was other problematic right-wing stuff too but it doesn't matter, no change on Gaza = no vote for her from me. Oh well.

So it seems your position remains pretty much the same as it was with Biden as the candidate.

I watched both the Brian Taylor Cohen take and the The Young Turks take and both were more charitable on Harris. Cenk called her Gaza bit "mediocre" but her speech overall "close to a homerun". Obviously I recognize that you don't have to march to the beat of their drum. I haven't watched The Majority Report or David Packman yet, but I regularly watch both so I plan to checkout what they have to say. Maybe they are more in line with your view. I have no idea if you watch any of these. I'm just trying to get some insight into your perspective on the issue.

EDIT: I watched TMR, they called her Gaza statements "OK", similar to TYT. It looks like Packman is behind on his videos (still on day 1).

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Moron talks bollocks

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/21/politics/fact-check-trump-harris-putin-meeting-ukraine/index.html

Trump said in a speech in North Carolina: “Remember when Biden sent Kamala to Europe to stop the war in Ukraine. She met with Putin, and then three days later, he attacked. How did she do? Do you think she did a good job? She met with Putin to tell him, ‘Don’t do it.’ And three days later, he attacked; that’s when the attack started. Did you know that, General?” (Retired Army Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg was at the North Carolina event.)

Facts First: Trump’s claim is false. Harris has never met with Putin. In reality, she met with US allies, including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, at the Munich Security Conference in the days before Russia’s February 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Putin was not at the conference.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Stories out that RFK is expected to be dropping out.

Harris' speech made few waves positively or negatively imo. Status quo of the state of her campaign is unchanged.

Those made were mostly activists disappointed. I continue to hope for a divorce between economic and social left. Same's the same.

 

[Samson]

I continue to hope for a divorce between economic and social left.

Can I ask what you think that would look like?

 

[Remorseless1]

Can I ask what you think that would look like?

Progressives dabble in communism and socialism. I doubt they're serious about it but they like to talk about it to establish their "moral clarity." People have been indulging in trading goods and services for 5,000 years. I doubt that's going to change.

 

[Samson]

Progressives dabble in communism and socialism. I doubt they're serious about it but they like to talk about it to establish their "moral clarity." People have been indulging in trading goods and services for 5,000 years. I doubt that's going to change.

There are people with more economically left views, and people with more socially left views. In a two party system, where the right party want quite extreme changes toward the right in both both economic and social areas, what would a "divorce between economic and social left" be? The obvious answer would be the democrats splitting, but that would be electoral suicide for both.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I continue to hope for a divorce between economic and social left. Same's the same.

Suppose someone runs on a platform of raising taxes and cutting benefits. Democrats or Republicans, which party would be hurt or undermined more?

This is not a rhetorical quesiton. I want to know more about the United States political spectrum.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Can I ask what you think that would look like?

Sure. It's well known that American organized labor isn't what it once was. Because of changes in how people socialize, there's far less meaningful interaction on the local level. Coworkers aren't really socially interlinked in a way that I think could be fairly compared to say, 1978. I conclude organized labor to be unlikely to return to that state, then, even if legislation were passed to remove some of the current handicaps.

What I'd like is for the state to act, where possible, in a way comparable to organized labor, if less local. Fundamentally, act more staunchly on behalf of workers interest. I think there's broad support for this, and unless people revert to past patterns of socialization, the state is really the only effective avenue available.

So why doesn't it happen?

There are people with more economically left views, and people with more socially left views. In a two party system, where the right party want quite extreme changes toward the right in both both economic and social areas, what would a "divorce between economic and social left" be? The obvious answer would be the democrats splitting, but that would be electoral suicide for both.

You kinda touch upon it here, IMO. At the organic, base level, the people most interested in using the state in the manner described above are simultaneously those most focused on matters of social injustice, most interested in pushing that needle forward. Which is fine, ethically, but it does have the practical consequence of adopting social views almost certain to be decidedly in the minority, as the first to arrive at a conclusion almost always faces a hostile consensus against it.

In effect, this is where the battles are, and remain, while comparably, far less effort is put into workers interests, simultaneously to turning many favorable towards those against you.

What it would effectively look like is a reorientation of priorities within the Dems. Less social focus, more economic focus, and critically, an understanding that the economics are presently imperative amongst the base and rightly chief focus, rather than pursuing both simultaneously. I think Harris may hold similar views as I do, honestly. Her focus lately on economics, and hesitancy to embrace demands of advocates on matters like Israel, is honestly pretty wise, IMO. If politics is the art of the possible, economic progress is really where the present focus should be.

 

[Gori the Grey]

One of the opening acts of tonights DNC was two of Kamala Harris' gradeschool aged nieces who had the very specific job of teaching everyone to pronounce "Kamala"... and you'll be pleased to hear that they used exactly the same description as you... "comma like a sentence... la like singing lalala"

Then they got the crowd chanting "This side of the house say 'comma' this side say 'la'... comma-la! comma-la!..."

They obviously read your stuff on CFC

I saw it, and while it would be gratifying to think that gradeschoolers are hanging on every word I post on CFC (since the rest of you ingrates don't seem to be--Sommer excepted of course), I can't actually claim credit for the mnemonic device.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I saw it, and while it would be gratifying to think that gradeschoolers are hanging on every word I post on CFC (since the rest of you ingrates don't seem to be--Sommer excepted of course), I can't actually claim credit for the mnemonic device.

Well don't leave us hanging... where did you first hear it?

 

[Samson]

In effect, this is where the battles are, and remain, while comparably, far less effort is put into workers interests, simultaneously to turning many favorable towards those against you.

I guess this is where I think I see it differently from you, but of course there is a pond between me and these battles. The only things I have seen the dems do are economic while the Republicans have been doing the social things.

 

[Gori the Grey]

^^Shortly after Biden dropped out, there was a real stir because The Villages, of all places, had a pro-Harris event. Someone had scrawled on a piece of cardboard a huge comma and the letters "la"

 

[sophie]

People have been indulging in trading goods and services for 5,000 years. I doubt that's going to change.

Not what communism nor socialism are or refer to.

 

[Birdjaguar]

The grift continues.

Trump’s businesses are raking in millions of dollars from Republican political campaigns – including his own​

Late last year, former President Donald Trump announced his endorsement of car dealership owner Bernie Moreno for Ohio’s Senate seat – elevating an untested candidate who’d never held public office over several other more prominent Republicans.
Two days later, Moreno’s campaign spent about $17,000 at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort, and then followed up by spending an additional $79,000 the next month – making him one of the Florida club’s top political spenders.

He wasn’t alone. With glitzy Mar-a-Lago fundraisers, stays at Trump’s hotels, and flights on the former president’s private jet, Republican candidates and political groups are on track to spend more on Trump’s businesses this year than any year since 2016, according to a CNN analysis of federal campaign finance data. Trump himself has been the biggest spender, both this year and over the last decade. Between his three presidential campaigns, Trump and associated political groups have funneled more than $28 million in campaign donations to his businesses – helping convert the enthusiasm of his political supporters into personal profit.

Other Republicans have followed suit, spending millions at Trump’s properties in an apparent attempt to curry favor with the former president and signal their allegiance to him to GOP voters.

Some of the candidates who’ve spent the most money on Trump businesses in recent years have been new politicians who won the former president’s endorsement despite a lack of past electoral experience or success, including Moreno, former Georgia Senate candidate Herschel Walker and Arizona Senate hopeful Kari Lake.


Much more at the link.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/23/politics/trump-businesses-campaign-spending-invs/index.html

 

[Voidwalkin]

I guess this is where I think I see it differently from you, but of course there is a pond between me and these battles. The only things I have seen the dems do are economic while the Republicans have been doing the social things.

There's some truth to that. Abortion has undermined their position substantially.

I guarantee that somewhere, one of the ultra-wealthy donors to the Republican party is furious at their focus on social issues undermining their electoral chances.

 

[Verbose]

Progressives dabble in communism and socialism. I doubt they're serious about it but they like to talk about it to establish their "moral clarity." People have been indulging in trading goods and services for 5,000 years. I doubt that's going to change.

Question seems rather to be if society needs to be more than a market?

The whole point of European-style Social Democracy is that you want and need a competitive and high-functioning national market economy making profits – because like that you can have surpluses that allows you to reform society in some ways beyond just people buying and selling anything and everything, and pushing the model of commodification and marketability onto everything, even stuff that should possibly not be dealt with like that.

The US social contract is kind of known for having diverged like that from about Nixon's days or so.

Another aspect is how not a few things that Europeans think to be political problems, requiring political solutions, in the US seem to be considered legal problems, requiring litigation.

In the end it tends to come down to anything but a "natural" or "self-evident" view of what role politics in itself should have in society? Not whether people should be able to trade on various markets – or even if they might do anything else but trade on various markets — to make a go of society?

 

[Lexicus]

So it seems your position remains pretty much the same as it was with Biden as the candidate.

That's because Kamala's position has remained the same as it was with Biden as the candidate. That's 100% on her.