End of Empires - N3S III

[Amon Savag]

Impressed, North King. Quite a grand project this is.

 

[Daftpanzer]

Game of Thrones laid the groundwork but End of Empires is what people will be talking about in 2024. By which point NK is a rich man from selling the TV & movie rights.

 

[Cannae]

I've revised and re-organized the world dictionary quite a bit. As I've stated before, I'd highly encourage other players to contribute.

http://endofempires.wikia.com/wiki/World_Dictionary

 

[Thlayli]

You're welcome to consult the Satar lexicon to add words if you like.

Wait, Athis has kangaroos? I'm pretty sure most marsupial mammals need geographic isolation to not be outcompeted, though I'll defer to Iggy on this one.

 

[North King]

Athis doesn't have kangaroos.

/relurk

 

[Daftpanzer]

With NK away, I was wondering if I could crowd-source some generic background info on Ethir and its environs. In particular, I'd like any pointers for describing:

* Language and personal names (I understand most of the written script will be imported from west + east)?

* Clothing / textiles?

* Domesticated animals present in northern Athis (cows? cats? dogs?)

* Alcoholic beverages?

* Luxuries - what passes for currency?

* Military equipment - the gear carried by higher-status soldiers?

Thankyou very much for any assistance

 

[Angst]

On alcoholic beverages/drugs. There are soul-eaters in Ereithaler, a fungus-based liquid drug originally from Levi'i Pok (currently the southernmost province of the Daharai) that has kinda the same effect but slightly more potent and more prone to mellowing you out..

 

[Thlayli]

I may or may not have given NK the inspiration for the Ethir, back in the dawn of time when I thought I might quit the Satar.

They started out, conceptually speaking, as a collection of forest-dwelling tribes and petty states, living in and around hill-forts, whose prized warriors rode red elks as a status symbol. (This may or may not have been prior to the widespread introduction of horses to northern Athis in the late Iron Age.)

They've mostly been a quiet people since then; they have avoided major political centralization and have had no notable great generals or conquerors. Their neighbors, including the recently conquered Tarvaen, are also Ethir in culture.

It's unclear what being Ethir even means in this day and age since nobody has really written anything about them. Religiously they're Maninists or Aelonists for the most part, so their beliefs range from pseudo-theistic to straight atheistic, depending on the local folk interpretations of the 'Aitah' and 'Manin' ideas and how much pull the Wards sent from afar actually have over the people, if any.

 

[Luckymoose]

It's unclear what being Ethir even means in this day and age since nobody has really written anything about them. Religiously they're Maninists or Aelonists for the most part, so their beliefs range from pseudo-theistic to straight atheistic, depending on the local folk interpretations of the 'Aitah' and 'Manin' ideas and how much pull the Wards sent from afar actually have over the people, if any.

I would argue they wouldn't be wildly different from the mainstream Orders or Aelonists, due to the north being highly active as a trade route and mostly Aelonist/Alonite for the past 350 years. Ethir was one of the first regions to be swept up in Aelonism in the 560s or 570s SR. That being said, it is almost certainly atheistic in all Pathist groups. Majority Aelonist, secondary would be Alonites, followed by miscellaneous Maninist Orders. Aelonists and Alonites are basically the same thing, under different leadership. If you want to know more about the Faith, Daft, just ask me. Wards, also, are not sent from afar, they are typically local. The power of the Wards in Ethir is up for debate, since it remains as one of the few kingdoms in the Pathist sphere. But the power of the Faith itself is unquestionable, as it is so ingrained in the culture of Athis peoples.

 

[Thlayli]

I would say it's entirely questionable. The power and authority of the 'Faith' is questioned by non-religious states all day.

And I was making a distinction between the doctrines of what an Aitah is as defined by Athsarion and the way real people thousands of miles away live their beliefs, those two often being very different things, as you know.

 

[Luckymoose]

I would say it's entirely questionable. The power and authority of the 'Faith' is questioned by non-religious states all day.

And I was making a distinction between the doctrines of what an Aitah is as defined by Athsarion and the way real people thousands of miles away live their beliefs, those two often being very different things, as you know.

The problem you have in that assumption of doctrines is Aelonism, as all Pathists, is a bottom up religion. The strongest sectors are the common folk, everywhere from Cyve to Partheca. It isn't like the priests in Ethir are going to say Aitah is a god when the entire north and Maninist Orders agree there are no gods, only guides. There might be variation, but nothing large enough to cause a schism when the entire point is the Path and Passions and Virtue.

 

[Thlayli]

When such an ahistorical interpretation of the Aitah is promulgated by a notoriously corrupt landed priesthood that actively hunts down new Aitahs, I would say there is ample grounds for schism.

 

[Luckymoose]

When such an ahistorical interpretation of the Aitah is promulgated by a notoriously corrupt landed priesthood that actively hunts down new Aitahs, I would say there is ample grounds for schism.

It isn't ahistorical if the Aitah wrote it? Where is Taleldil's handwritten memoir? Also, landed priesthood is a weird interpretation, considering the priests don't really own the land and wards are elected. The last bit was probably only that one guy and in no way is a massive conspiracy currently occurring.

 

[Thlayli]

So if she directly contradicts earlier Aitahs, does that make HER a false Aitah or does it discredit Aitahhood in general?

Excuse me, by 'landed,' I only meant 'fabulously wealthy'.

 

[Luckymoose]

So if she directly contradicts earlier Aitahs, does that make HER a false Aitah or does it discredit Aitahhood in general?

Excuse me, by 'landed,' I only meant 'fabulously wealthy'.

There is no evidence she contradicted earlier Aitahs, as she discovered what Aitah was and it didn't match up with what the establishment in the south said. The mainstream Aelonist thoughts follow the writings which say exactly that, that others misread the message and it was clarified for the first time by Whispers so the mistake couldn't be propagated. Much like clarifying a mathematical concept. The concept of Haradim in general is a clarification of what these people were and their roles are in the Faith, related to the Path. Aitah being a special version, known officially as Haradyr by the Maninists (the -yr is important here), whose purpose is to come again and again as a message that finding and maintaining the Path isn't difficult, as she must do it each time while you only have to do it once. Modern views on Harada has them as actively participating in the Faith, but most of them don't have the ability or role--fortunately in some ways, since Aitah could be viewed to suffer repeatedly instead of just letting things be, as each Aitah goes through all the work of finding the Path and many never figure it out--that Aitah does. There are some other individuals who are reported to maybe come back to act as a guide again, like Javan, but that's not confirmed in any way as of current times. More recently you had the Eskarite Celad Arbinter, who proposed that much like ideas and math, virtue and such could exist in a timeless state and thus could travel both ways. Celadism is pretty important to the concept of Haradim and especially Aitah.

It is a complex cookie, but also simple.

As for the wealthy priesthood, do not take the palatial complex at Athsarion to be the standard of wealth for priests and wards in Cyvekt or Aelonist circles. There is a class of higher, more important individuals who have more access to the wealth such as the Professorial class and the Wards, but even a lot of them turn the wealth down in favor of helping the common folk. If you're a valuable individual, you'll probably get funding for whatever task you're doing regardless. The most wealthy individuals in the Aelonist world are almost certainly the merchant classes, who are not tied to the Faith. But most priests and wards are nowhere near the wealth of landed elite in Acca or the Federation.

 

[Jehoshua]

Perhaps you could promulgate a more detail;ed theological explication of Aelonist thought vis a vis the Aitah, the concept of Harada/Haradyr and so forth if you manage to find the spare time. I think I understand what the gist of it is, but further development of aelonism can only be a good thing.

That said, I do think that Thalyli's point is valid if one applies it to potential objections to aelonism from the orthodox aitahists in the Federation (which could become more evident in the future due to the divide between the Siran and Seshweay parts of the realm). Indeed the aelonist interpretation of the Aitah as some ersatz bodhisattva would be quite opposed to the orthodox position as far as I'm aware (Masada being the expert, not I). At the very least the constant references to the aitah as a goddess in previous updates gives the impression that they see the Aitah as something more akin to a deity which repeatedly descends (in an avataric way) for the benefit of humanity in times of particular spiritual necessity.

 

[Masada]

Kinda, sorta. We just think the other lot have misread our religious writings and projected that error into the works of Aelona et. al. We use this to explain why the Aelonists can be so damned weird.

 

[Luckymoose]

Perhaps you could promulgate a more detail;ed theological explication of Aelonist thought vis a vis the Aitah, the concept of Harada/Haradyr and so forth if you manage to find the spare time. I think I understand what the gist of it is, but further development of aelonism can only be a good thing.

That said, I do think that Thalyli's point is valid if one applies it to potential objections to aelonism from the orthodox aitahists in the Federation (which could become more evident in the future due to the divide between the Siran and Seshweay parts of the realm). Indeed the aelonist interpretation of the Aitah as some ersatz bodhisattva would be quite opposed to the orthodox position as far as I'm aware (Masada being the expert, not I). At the very least the constant references to the aitah as a goddess in previous updates gives the impression that they see the Aitah as something more akin to a deity which repeatedly descends (in an avataric way) for the benefit of humanity in times of particular spiritual necessity.

Further development isn't really required when all you need to know can be gathered through the wiki at current, or through simply asking. I don't particularly enjoy writing long essays on theology.

Ersatz? That's offensive. The concept of Aitah is a being whose origin isn't defined, and for good reason (Aelona was smart enough to not get specific), but is most definitely not a god and definitely does live as a mortal human being (though usually with miracle healing, visions, or something else). Aelona was raised Maninist with a strong Ardavan stint, long before she ever was proclaimed Aitah by Khatai. It directly affected her writings on the concept, as she didn't particularly feel like a god and her own visions contradicted the concept of godhood. Orthodox Aitah is a god, sorta, but mostly I think the general concept of what Aitah does is not wildly different. Both show the people the proper way and usually come in times of need (and thus they are being born all over the world for the same purpose). Aitah in the Maninist and Aelonist sense is a complex being who can be alive in multiple human forms at any given time, and is by no means promised or destined to be recognized or understand herself. Aitah must find the Path and be revealed, usually by someone else who knows the signs (we have an entire wing of professors for that), and self-declaration means a big pile of nothing. All proper Aitahs have been recognized by someone with authority to do so, for this reason.

Thus any translation of goddess is a misnomer. In modern theology she's a guide, the first or most prominent of them, or simply Haradyr. A lot of this can be attributed to Aelona's own intelligence and ability to interpret her visions in a way that didn't piss too many people off in combination with Risardri's counteroffensive in the north. What you end up with a giant puddle of pink paint with specks of other shades. You can thank the development of Aelonism and Maninism along such similar lines to Perfy and myself attempting to steal from each other, without knowing the details, during the ET. Turns out we made about the same thing.

 

[Masada]

Orthodox Aitah is a god, sorta, but mostly I think the general concept of what Aitah does is not wildly different. Both show the people the proper way and usually come in times of need (and thus they are being born all over the world for the same purpose).

Yeah, this is a fair call. Orthodox Aitahists don't quite know or agree on what the Goddess is either. Seshweay think she's the product of two returned Ancestors having a child. Faron think something else. Moti and Oscadians think Goddess knows what (which means I haven't decided).* Although, all agree on her essential role.

Thus any translation of goddess is a misnomer. In modern theology she's a guide, the first or most prominent of them, or simply Haradyr.

We'd disagree on this. But I think it'd take a bit of effort to peg down what Goddess actually means.

 

[Luckymoose]

We'd disagree on this. But I think it'd take a bit of effort to peg down what Goddess actually means.

To us it is believed there are no gods, so we can't say there is one who rules over or is supreme or even requires worship. Taleldil, for example, seeks to become a god through conquest and wishes, in our eye, to enslave humanity under his tyranny. We don't really dig them chains. In practice, you don't really worship the Aitah so much as revere and follow the example of the Aitah. Saying one is a god takes away the personal initiative of the person seeking the Path, as we believe the Path cannot be given or granted but must be earned by each individual. No one can say, "You're no longer a bad person, by the power of Greyskull!" She can show you the Path, but you must walk it.