English-Only

[Abaddon]

Well just because you post a translation, doesn't mean its going to be believed.

You post your desired quote, along with the translation
It gets checked and approved
You can then use it.
Seeeemple.

 

[Mise]

But rules already allow non-English sigs if there is an English translation in the sig as well.

Same for posts; you can post a link to or quote from a foreign language website that has swearing or offensive material, and then post an English translation that removes that material.

Then I have to wonder how you can be offended by something you don't even understand...

 

[Padma]

Right, so what's to stop me swearing and flaming in Welsh, only to provide a completely benign (but deliberately wrong) English translation?

And what's to stop me using colloquial english to insult and flame?

Many of us on staff are multilingual, or at least sufficiently so to recognize most swearing and flaming. In cases where we are not sure, we can get a quick online translation. Besides, chances are someone else who speaks that language will have reported the usage before we even see it.

The same holds true for colloquialisms.

The problem is that that is all time-consuming and annoying for the staff.

My own personal preference would be to allow commonly-understood foreign phrases to be allowed. But then, we would have to define "commonly-understood". I know what "alle Menschen werden Brüder" means, and have for decades. But not everyone does. Heck, I have met American adults who have no idea what "C'est la vie" means, and I used to think that was an obvious given.

For now, I suggest we stick to what has always been the policy: if you post something in non-English, also post a translation. (And be prepared for an infraction if you deliberately 'mis-translate'.)

 

[Mise]

Many of us on staff are multilingual, or at least sufficiently so to recognize most swearing and flaming. In cases where we are not sure, we can get a quick online translation. Besides, chances are someone else who speaks that language will have reported the usage before we even see it.

The same holds true for colloquialisms.

The problem is that that is all time-consuming and annoying for the staff.

How is it any more time consuming or annoying than general moderation? How hard is it to get a quick online translation? If people are reporting a signature violation, how is that more difficult to moderate than reporting a post for flaming? And why would you want to preclude all foreign language signatures on the basis of a few bad apples?

Surely all posters are capable of posting unacceptable content, and creating extra work for moderators. And all posts are time consuming and annoying to moderate. But we don't ban all posts and all posters just because of a few bad apples.

My own personal preference would be to allow commonly-understood foreign phrases to be allowed. But then, we would have to define "commonly-understood". I know what "alle Menschen werden Brüder" means, and have for decades. But not everyone does. Heck, I have met American adults who have no idea what "C'est la vie" means, and I used to think that was an obvious given.

IMO a short foreign phrase or quotation should be allowed, because these can be easily and losslessly translated online.

 

[LucyDuke]

Translations are distracting clutter. Consider my previous sig:

__________________
Tiene que ser el cambio que quiere ver en el mundo.





Short and sweet! (Yeah, I know, bad Spanish, I'm rusty.) Or, it would have to be:

__________________
Tiene que ser el cambio que quiere ver en el mundo.
Translation: You must be the change you wish to see in the world.




It's just pointless, there's no reason to have the foreign-language part at all. I think Godwynn's idea is a very good one. Perhaps middle ground could require a link to the "approved" post in the suggested thread, to simplify verification.

__________________
Tiene que ser el cambio que quiere ver en el mundo.




Nice and neat.

 

[Padma]

... there's no reason to have the foreign-language part at all.

That is the point to this whole discussion, IMHO.

 

[GenMarshall]

Heck even my signature has Japanese characters in it along with an English translation.

 

[Godwynn]

Thanks for all of the support. I didn't expect it to be this overwhelming!

During the time this thread has been up I have seen signatures in Latin and Greek. I am merely waiting on a ruling by Thunderfall. I guess he is on a well-deserved vacation. What is that saying? When the cats are away the mice will... be well-behaved?

One thing I forgot to mention is my signature even has a wikipedia translation. You can find it on the eleventh line down in the German Original section. My usertitle also has its own wikipedia entry.

Thanks again!

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I'm on board with 1) allowing short quotes in other languages, 2) moderating to the rules.

You just wasted 6 seconds of your life reading this sentence.

I wasted several seconds responding, sure, but that took me <1 second to read?

 

[Opera]

I support the idea of allowing foreign sentences in signatures. Actually, I don't even care if there is a translation or not

 

[Valkrionn]

I see no issue with sigs of ANY language, translation or not, so long as they are not offensive. This includes English.

 

[Krill]

Many of us on staff are multilingual, or at least sufficiently so to recognize most swearing and flaming. In cases where we are not sure, we can get a quick online translation. Besides, chances are someone else who speaks that language will have reported the usage before we even see it.

The same holds true for colloquialisms.

So...why require the translation again?

 

[Padma]

So...why require the translation again?

"The problem is that that is all time-consuming and annoying for the staff."

So ... why bother with non-English in the first place?

 

[LucyDuke]

Padma, do you really see no reason someone would want to have foreign-language bits? Or do you just think those reasons aren't very good?

 

[Padma]

Actually, I can think of several reasons. And it's not that I think those reasons aren't any good. It's more a question of if they're good enough.

As Birdjaguar pointed out in a different thread on being a moderator, as a Mod/Admin, one starts to look at things differently.

 

[LucyDuke]

I can see that. I do think this is something worth compromising on, given the overwhelming support Godwynn's idea received from the community. Maybe if I were a mod I would feel differently. I do hope you guys at least discuss it.

One of the biggest reasons to allow it is that substituting the translation destroys the je ne sais quoi of the original. There are things that can be said in German that simply cannot be said in English. That's the point of the original I was referring to, that I don't think you recognized in post #42.

 

[Padma]

Oh, rest assured, we'll discuss it.

As I mentioned earlier, my *personal* preference would be to allow some "foreign" phrases without requiring translation.

And I also concur that some things don't translate well. (Anything can be translated. The question is whether the *meaning*, the subtle connotations, carry over.)

 

[Hsinchu]

Broadly, I think any signature that has an intent of being understood can usually be a good thing. Any signature that whose intent utilizes linguistics or language or verbiage to deliberately misdirect or conceal is usually a bad thing. Therefore, if a signature can be understood (whether English or not) it should not be considered an obvious infraction.

Narrowly, in quantifying what qualifies as language, if we consider that English, German, French, and numerous other languages already have double entendres and that there are whole languages based on other languages like ebonics and 133+5|)34|<, it behooves us to maintain approval.

If a signature is questionable (I received a warning for length since I didn't know there was a format policy) then instead of a mod exercising infractional justice or wasting their time verifying, the warning message could simply be "Please post translation/defense in ..... thread". I'm sure mods keep lists, otherwise they wouldn't have any reason to threaten (speaking of Whomp ) so I'm sure a follow-up to a thread will be both less effort than a verification and more light-handed than a wrist slap. Plus, as mentioned before, such a thread could be interesting.

 

[ainwood]

As Birdjaguar pointed out in a different thread on being a moderator, as a Mod/Admin, one starts to look at things differently.

And to go further, Mods / Admins sometimes have to enforce rules that they don't necessarily agree with.

I do hope you guys at least discuss it.

Discussing it right here.

One of the biggest reasons to allow it is that substituting the translation destroys the je ne sais quoi of the original. There are things that can be said in German that simply cannot be said in English. That's the point of the original I was referring to, that I don't think you recognized in post #42.

Right. But who is the quote aimed at? At the german-speaking audience here? On an english-language forum?

The purpose of forums is to communicate. For threads, if only a small fraction of the audience can actually understand the posts, then it is a wasted thread. One of the reasons for "english only" (aside from the practicallities of moderating). If we extend this thinking to signatures, what is the purpose of a foreign-language signature?

If the purpose is to communicate, then allowing foreign language without translation fails (and actually appears a bit pretentious). There may be an argument that it is based on personalising a post or a contribution. How important is that?

 

[Mise]

The game obviously attracts a lot of people from non-English speaking countries, and so does this forum. I think it's fairly important to allow people a bit of freedom to go outside mere communication and to express something held dear to them in a way meaningful to them. I don't see the harm in that, and I think it's much more important to not alienate a great many foreign-language speakers.