erezNES - Waves of Civilization

[Terrance888]

from Fula:
We accept the supplies and support. May your mothers sins be erased. I will accept your daughter to wed my son, he may not be the future king, but it will cement our alliance for now.

From King Karos of Yakot

Let it be done.

from Patu:
We need no extra supplies, for our city was not harmed much by the storm. We also wish for nothing from you at all, it is the Fula who are invaded, not us, and we do not trust you.

Trust is more valuable than gold and we respect your decision to not give me any. However, we must agree to not work against each other if we do not work directly together, and I hope you will give us at least that in exchange for the same.

 

[erez87]

Xian Diplomacy ​

To O'mase: That is strange, last we heard they wanted to push forward against you once we finished with the Harhana. However; we will accept a peace on one extra condition. You have seen how the Harhana have grown and struck down the Ikenma, they are a threat that must be wiped out from the face of Xin. If you send your warriors to help fight them alongside the Siwang League then we will have peace with you.

To Ikenma: Oh how your tune changes. Last I heard you were going to march on us and conquer our lands. But I am an understanding man, give me one reason why I should help you instead of letting the Harhana weaken themselves against you and then destroying them when they finally defeat you?

To the Siwang League (Yuanti, Chi'zuna, Jinzhou): Now is indeed the time to strike against the Harhana and drive them out from our lands. But they are numerous and we cannot accomplish that with only peasant militia. First we must raise as many men as we can into a true army before taking out the Harhana.

Also I have come up with a new idea for an elite division of the Siwang League who is made up of our strongest men to serve as the vanguard of our army. They will be under the control of the entire league, not one of its members. We will all have to contribute towards creating them but I believe that they will be able to fight much better than any single division. They will be called the 前锋 (Chen'Fung). What say you to this proposal?

from O'mase: We will of course join.
from Yuanti: We accept peace with O'mase as long as they stay on their side of the river and aid again the Harhana.

ooc: How is that going to work? Who will have the unit in his stats?

and another OOC for EVERYONE
Stop sending your men to settle, or you will just create mroe giant tribal unions to war with you, look at Iberia for the result. You are mostly small city states - remain that way for now, your people can expand all by themselves as needed. New city states will appear across the world through each update. No land is free land, and the world is huge so you can't just go and settle the entire Sicily with 5000 men. That's silly. Let expansion run itself - do conquest and enslaving directly only.

 

[SamSniped]

Thanks for the tip

 

[Patchy]

OOC: It will work like this. First we vote on whether or not we need to create the Chen'Fung. Once that has been decided by majority vote we decide where they should be deployed (In this case they would be sent to fight the Harhana along with the other armies) and they are deployed to kick major ass.

Everyone has it as a unique unit option as any member can start a vote to create the Chen'Fung for military purposes. The problem is getting others to agree. I did this so that it would be somewhat difficult to create them to offset how powerful I expect them to be. Keeping it balanced and all that.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

Damnit!

But, I didn't know there were other people in Sicily...

And by that order I meant claim, not settle. Just have the men settle as much as they can.

 

[TerrisH]

okay, I'm out. I'm not going to sit back and take a scripted event that ignore my orders compleatly.

 

[erez87]

Thanks for the tip

I hinted at it each update You just kept pushing them...

OOC: It will work like this. First we vote on whether or not we need to create the Chen'Fung. Once that has been decided by majority vote we decide where they should be deployed (In this case they would be sent to fight the Harhana along with the other armies) and they are deployed to kick major ass.

Everyone has it as a unique unit option as any member can start a vote to create the Chen'Fung for military purposes. The problem is getting others to agree. I did this so that it would be somewhat difficult to create them to offset how powerful I expect them to be. Keeping it balanced and all that.

My idea is to have them as a different faction to the Chinese city states with no real income where you guys need to give them money (and gifts) to gain influence over the most powerful free-fighting force in China. When they get really powerful such influence could come in handy as they support someone to unite China

Damnit!

But, I didn't know there were other people in Sicily...

And by that order I meant claim, not settle. Just have the men settle as much as they can.

There are people in all the world. Loads of them. Only some small volcanic island chains are unpopulated for now. Grey color on the map = strong tribal settlements that aren't interested in expanding (dark grey = moving hordes and barbarian tribes looking for lands and loot). Grey usually will become city states as the population grows in size and civilization. For now city states have very small populations, the biggest having no more than 10k people including all of the farmlands etc... (militia is a good hint at population size).

As for claiming - I don't think others might like getting claimed you ain't Roman Empire or USA yet...

 

[erez87]

okay, I'm out. I'm not going to sit back and take a scripted event that ignore my orders compleatly.

How did I ignore your orders? They said to get your territories back - which failed since they were stronger and most other city states chose to send aid to Nassiros and not you (mostly since many thought they where were the horde will strike, and after Nycheos helped the horde it was pretty much a done deal and no one wanted to help in fear of their greater naval capabilities).

But Ok. I still think Troja has the biggest chance to dominate the Aegean Sea as a trade power (you have the biggest trade potential currently, since the others don't like Nassiros, and one of the three biggest economies).

 

[TerrisH]

I didn't NEED any help to repulse the barbarians. I wasn't counting on ANY help at all. instead, I get steamrolled by GM fiat. there is nothing in the update that even resemble my orders.
Like I said, I'm out.

 

[Terrance888]

Well technically, everything is GM Fiat. The same way that everything is Player Agency. TerrisH, and anyone else with a problem with the update, I suggest you do what I did and send a PM with details exactly what you think was wrong, so that erez can tell you what he determined happened. As a mod myself, I don't put ALL the details into the update, and sometimes the one I do are misinterpreted (tycho!). As a player, I found this very rewarding and not only do I accept erez's explanation, both of us are now much more understanding of each other's views on Nogaia's culture.

 

[TerrisH]

Like I said, I'm out of the game now, so it doesn't matter. move on please to other matters.

 

[Tycho]

Well technically, everything is GM Fiat. The same way that everything is Player Agency. TerrisH, and anyone else with a problem with the update, I suggest you do what I did and send a PM with details exactly what you think was wrong, so that erez can tell you what he determined happened. As a mod myself, I don't put ALL the details into the update, and sometimes the one I do are misinterpreted (tycho!). As a player, I found this very rewarding and not only do I accept erez's explanation, both of us are now much more understanding of each other's views on Nogaia's culture.

I have never, ever misinterpreted stuff that has been in an update at all.

Though I do have to say, the expansion of erezNES is slower than TerraNES, which means when the nation does expand, it's a lot more gratifying.

 

[Terrance888]

from Patu:
We need no extra supplies, for our city was not harmed much by the storm. We also wish for nothing from you at all, it is the Fula who are invaded, not us, and we do not trust you.

From Karos of Yakot
Trust is more valuable than gold and we respect your decision to not give me any. However, we must agree to not work against each other if we do not work directly together, and I hope you will give us at least that in exchange for the same.

1st, response for this please?

Though I do have to say, the expansion of erezNES is slower than TerraNES, which means when the nation does expand, it's a lot more gratifying.

I'll keep this in mind. Mwahaha.
(OOC: I actually made expansion very VERY hard compared to NESes back then, it is just you guys are just so ruthless and lucky. )

 

[Patchy]

Question: If i raise an army now and queue up an attack on the Harhana for the orders will it be trained or what?

 

[spaceman98]

OOC: I have a dillemma. There is a perfect solution to all of my current problems, but I an not sure if it is IC for my culture to follow it... Ah well, since the alternative is extermination its time to do something that feels sadly... Axumite. (I guess I really can't RP something truely unlike my initial nation.) And no, have no fear, I am NOT bribing the horde, even I am more creative than THAT.

 

[Patchy]

Oi, you got a problem with me using others to do my dirty work?

 

[Terrance888]

Spoiler :

Look what I found!!!

Going by table one, an available force of 5000 militia would mean the backing of about 42,000 people.

The only thing which I see can be changed is allowing professionals to fight in the standard militia, which will hurt more overall as it takes a lifetime (apprenticeship/castes) to train.

Of course, this is medieval. However, going by the easier definition that half (instead of an eighth) of the men are able bodied, a 5000 militia group, if accounting for ALL the able-bodied men, would still relate to a 20,000 people supporting population. This group can certainly campaign in the Summer or Late Fall without affecting harvest too much.

If the biggest cities+population are about 10k at this time, the max able-bodied militia by 25% would be 2500 men. By his percentage of 12.125% it would be just 1200 men.

Ergo, if we want to go with 10K populations and his calculations, our max men size is 1200 of'em. If we go with half the men are able, then we have 2500 of'em. If we take ALL males, form baby bob to teenage tom to grandpa jerry, then and only then we get our quite common amount of 5000 men.

INFODUMP.

Will be reposted in Nes NESes for the benefit of posterity. This took 20 minutes of searching and calculations to find.

Spoiler Nogaia :

EDIT: This math collapse further when you consider that in Nogaia society, only Dega are allowed to bear weapons. Patu has 10k militia and thus 81k Dega. If we assume each Dega only is directed with 1 Kele, they have 162k population. Remember of course, the Dega are scattered across the countryside as Kele farm managers and town-fort dwellers as well, but seeing that Patu has a minimum of 162k population by that count, that is quite a stretch.

EDITEDIT: Ah, but WOMEN are allowed to bear weapons in Nogaia society. That doubles it from 8.2:1 ratio to an 4.1:1 ratio. I will say some are busy pregnant or taking care of children giving us back to an even 4:1.

Still, with the illogical 1:1 ratio of Kele to Dega, we still end up with a Dege population of 40k and a total population of at lest 100k for Patu alone.

NES=/= real life, it seems, no matter how hard you try.

EDITEDITEDIT: There are 37k abled bodied men on Nogaia island. 20k are armed Dega, leading to a Dega population of 80k. 17k are Fisofi, leading to a 140k (68k if mixed) population of Fisofi. Not counting the Kele living under Nogaia rule, there is a population at least 220k (148k) and more likely at least 300k (228k) on Nogaia, with 80K Kele matching the 80k Dega.

Comparably, the current Taiwanese population is About 23 Million.

According to this source, in 1650 the aboriginal Taiwanese numbered only 50k. By our numbers, they can only raise a force of about 6k men, or 12k men and women.

Spoiler Nassiri :

Let's go to Nassiri. Counting ALL able bodied men, there are 148k of'em. Times 8.2 and you get 1 Million, 214 Thousand people.

There are 40k Illians, giving them a total population of 328k.

There are 15k Dorians-> 123k Dorians
There are 10 Aelonians> 82k Aelonians

There are 83k Nassiri->680k Nassiri population

 

[erez87]

From King Karos of Yakot

Trust is more valuable than gold and we respect your decision to not give me any. However, we must agree to not work against each other if we do not work directly together, and I hope you will give us at least that in exchange for the same.

We agree we will not work against each other. The Fisofi are the greater threat.

I didn't NEED any help to repulse the barbarians. I wasn't counting on ANY help at all. instead, I get steamrolled by GM fiat. there is nothing in the update that even resemble my orders.
Like I said, I'm out.

You had more than 10 times your entire population coming at you. You needed help. Your orders were "conquer back the land and than go conquer more". You did conquer back some.

Though I do have to say, the expansion of erezNES is slower than TerraNES, which means when the nation does expand, it's a lot more gratifying.

You have no idea . Your nation is getting too big for the era of city states

Question: If i raise an army now and queue up an attack on the Harhana for the orders will it be trained or what?

Yes, any unit your raise now, will only be available next turn (and must have its upkeep paid of course). You can use militia in the mean time, although that is bad...

Spoiler :

Look what I found!!!

Going by table one, an available force of 5000 militia would mean the backing of about 42,000 people.

The only thing which I see can be changed is allowing professionals to fight in the standard militia, which will hurt more overall as it takes a lifetime (apprenticeship/castes) to train.

Of course, this is medieval. However, going by the easier definition that half (instead of an eighth) of the men are able bodied, a 5000 militia group, if accounting for ALL the able-bodied men, would still relate to a 20,000 people supporting population. This group can certainly campaign in the Summer or Late Fall without affecting harvest too much.

If the biggest cities+population are about 10k at this time, the max able-bodied militia by 25% would be 2500 men. By his percentage of 12.125% it would be just 1200 men.

Ergo, if we want to go with 10K populations and his calculations, our max men size is 1200 of'em. If we go with half the men are able, then we have 2500 of'em. If we take ALL males, form baby bob to teenage tom to grandpa jerry, then and only then we get our quite common amount of 5000 men.

INFODUMP.

Will be reposted in Nes NESes for the benefit of posterity. This took 20 minutes of searching and calculations to find.

Spoiler Nogaia :

EDIT: This math collapse further when you consider that in Nogaia society, only Dega are allowed to bear weapons. Patu has 10k militia and thus 81k Dega. If we assume each Dega only is directed with 1 Kele, they have 162k population. Remember of course, the Dega are scattered across the countryside as Kele farm managers and town-fort dwellers as well, but seeing that Patu has a minimum of 162k population by that count, that is quite a stretch.

EDITEDIT: Ah, but WOMEN are allowed to bear weapons in Nogaia society. That doubles it from 8.2:1 ratio to an 4.1:1 ratio. I will say some are busy pregnant or taking care of children giving us back to an even 4:1.

Still, with the illogical 1:1 ratio of Kele to Dega, we still end up with a Dege population of 40k and a total population of at lest 100k for Patu alone.

NES=/= real life, it seems, no matter how hard you try.

EDITEDITEDIT: There are 37k abled bodied men on Nogaia island. 20k are armed Dega, leading to a Dega population of 80k. 17k are Fisofi, leading to a 140k (68k if mixed) population of Fisofi. Not counting the Kele living under Nogaia rule, there is a population at least 220k (148k) and more likely at least 300k (228k) on Nogaia, with 80K Kele matching the 80k Dega.

Comparably, the current Taiwanese population is About 23 Million.

According to this source, in 1650 the aboriginal Taiwanese numbered only 50k. By our numbers, they can only raise a force of about 6k men, or 12k men and women.

Spoiler Nassiri :

Let's go to Nassiri. Counting ALL able bodied men, there are 148k of'em. Times 8.2 and you get 1 Million, 214 Thousand people.

There are 40k Illians, giving them a total population of 328k.

There are 15k Dorians-> 123k Dorians
There are 10 Aelonians> 82k Aelonians

There are 83k Nassiri->680k Nassiri population

That is VERY interesting. For now the simplest result is:
Units are made of 100 men (or less) each.

Making the biggest nations no more than 10-15k population. Perhaps we do now some sort of pop stat vs the militia stat to show how many of your people are actually on your side

I'm going to delve into that and by next update I'll see what I'll do.

 

[erez87]

Ok I have been thinking of that link and I understand it's mostly about standing professional armies. At this time there are no real standing professional armies, and the militia is made of all able bodied men who will defend themselves during an invasion, and that can be called upon during a season (many seasons per update...) to fight and go back to their field in planting time or harvest time.

Professional armies are all units other than militia - these cost money (and the price will only get crazier until much later) to train, to maintain and cost time to train too. With the small economies currently it is going to be very hard to keep a large standing army and keeping your economy alive.

So for number proposes - a militia group is a thousand men, they are untrained peasants with forks and at best spears. They will usually defend themselves and their countries, but will be bad at it, and they can be used in wars, albeit at a cost of economic slowdown and a need to pay for greater logistics (don't forget logistics in your big wars! upkeep only pays to the units... nothing to dow ith food or supplies)
Units and unique units will be a 100 men per unit on average. These are trained professionals, paid by the state to fight and so are very expensive to hold and train.

 

[mayor]

100 men per unit...

Does that also include my Sanctum Populum units, which are basically glorified militia? If so, I have to revise their role in society