Ethics of Amazon

[sophie]

You can't solve structural issues through individual consumer choices. Yes amazon is immoral. Yes amazon should be destroyed. But that can only be done by destroying the whole system. Avoid buying from amazon if it makes you feel personally fulfilled, but know you are achieving nothing more than that personal fulfillment. If you actually want to see amazon destroyed then you need to get out and start organizing collective action.

 

[Yeekim]

They have some kind of ethics?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

thank you very much aimee

@yung.carl.jung I think you said somewhere recently that "voting with your wallet" is a sham. It is. It follows that the solution to Amazon's abuses is not to be found in individual consumer choices.

IMO if it is really true that Amazon's model is so much more efficient than its competitors as to give it monopoly power, then the company should be nationalized. Turn it into a public internet-based distribution service that acts as a broker between online sellers and purchasers.

You can't solve structural issues through individual consumer choices. Yes amazon is immoral. Yes amazon should be destroyed. But that can only be done by destroying the whole system. Avoid buying from amazon if it makes you feel personally fulfilled, but know you are achieving nothing more than that personal fulfillment. If you actually want to see amazon destroyed then you need to get out and start organizing collective action.

I agree 100%, however I would say that there is a definite logical mistake in this kind of reasoning:

it is true that individual consumer decisions are not an effective tool for achieving political or economic change, however this does NOT in turn mean that individual consumer decisions are irrelevant or morally unproblematic. that would be engaging in fatalism. me not owning and using a car does have a direct, causal, measurable (albeit minimal) impact on this world's athmosphere, even though it won't stop anyone else from owning a car or polluting, nor will it singlehandedly save this world. me setting an example for other people might be a meaningful way of achieving slow yet sustainable change. we all know that ideologies do spread like wildfire, but this obviously goes both ways. schlaufuchs said that our best tool is collective action, and I agree. the basis for that action is, in my opinion, a critical mass of people with a different set of ideas.

and I also agree fully on the count of nationalization.

That said, I also tend to think trying to shame people into not buying from Amazon isn't particularly helpful. Personally I avoid Amazon completely and because of where I live and my modest consumption (the thing I spend the most money on, you can't buy on Amazon) it's easy for me to do so.

I mean I am guilty as charged anyway, because I did (and sometimes do) still shop with amazon. I am unsure if shaming is necessarily bad. I've been shamed for many things in my life, and it did help me find a better path I'd like to say. my mum was recently shamed for taking an aeroplane vacation every single year, and she changed her entire vacation habits after that. I was kinda shamed for my excessive meat consumption (including sometimes buying a chicken breast and letting it go bad) and I've completely changed behavior since. maybe shaming people isn't the most productive way to go about achieving things, but personally I am pretty sick of handling people with kids gloves, and I believe it has gotten us pretty bad results so far.

bolded part is definitely true for me, too

I can definitely buy clothes cheaper on Amazon than I can at the local thrift.

Individual consumer choice becomes irrelevant with companies like Amazon and Alphabet. Legislate. Force them to be better. Let them cry as their monstrous profits become slightly less monstrous.

qft

I think i also said something like that. If you're broke, you have to take whatever's cheapest. Can't exactly vote with your wallet in those circumstances.

very true. another example: if you live in rural America you almost need a car in order to have some modicum of mobility. this is wholly structural issue, a product of bad city planning and automobile lobbying, and the fact that poor people are consistently forced into consumer decisions they don't necessarily want to take is criminal in itself.

 

[sophie]

Oh, also, if your interest is in getting other people to stop doing a certain behavior, then shaming them for that behavior is literally counterproductive. Like at a psychological level.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

You can't solve structural issues through individual consumer choices.

I read recently that more than half of the CO2 output in the world is from a tiny minority of rich people. But hey let's take away a necessary accessibility tool in order to help the environment.

 

[local_hero]

it is true that individual consumer decisions are not an effective tool for achieving political or economic change, however this does NOT in turn mean that individual consumer decisions are irrelevant or morally unproblematic. me not owning a car does have a direct, causal, measurable (albeit minimal) impact on this world's athmosphere, even though it won't stop anyone else from owning a car or polluting, nor will it singlehandedly save this world.

I know my effort to try eat vegetarian more often, not owning a car, consume as little as possible etc doesn't have that much impact.

It makes me feel better though, and I hope me and other likeminded can inspire others to make necessary changes. Change has to start somewhere.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

It makes me feel better though, and I hope me and other likeminded can inspire others to make necessary changes. Change has to start somewhere.

that is pretty much what I wanted to say. there is a reason why people want to drive expensive cars and worship people like Musk or Buffet. as long as there isn't a radical change in what people want for themselves and others, collective action won't happen on a big enough scale. the wheels won't stop, both literally and figuratively. one catalyst for such change could be to set an example for the people around you, in your daily life, or to take political action, to strive for better representation of alternate lifestyles, or simply to talk to other people.

I read recently that more than half of the CO2 output in the world is from a tiny minority of rich people. But hey let's take away a necessary accessibility tool in order to help the environment.

I really do hope you find a solution to the straw problem. could reusable bamboo straws work? then again, these come with their own problems, like having to be washed constantly and not being fitting for a dishwasher.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well I've often claimed I care about economics more than social justice.

Economics to me means things like wages and conditions.

Any liberal to me that defends Amazon is a hypocrite. Personally I don't buy from them unless I have no choice.

I make do with less. There's stuff you want and stuff you need.

Note that's if you have no choice part. I haven't used Amazon in years.

It's one of the worst examples of employee conditions and work environment.

I don't judge you if you have to use it or minimize using it. If you defend it though and otherwise call yourself a liberal though you're a hypocrite.

 

[Lexicus]

Oh, also, if your interest is in getting other people to stop doing a certain behavior, then shaming them for that behavior is literally counterproductive. Like at a psychological level.

I agree. On the other hand, not every instance of noting Amazon's [lack of] ethics is necessarily shaming those who use Amazon.

it is true that individual consumer decisions are not an effective tool for achieving political or economic change, however this does NOT in turn mean that individual consumer decisions are irrelevant or morally unproblematic. that would be engaging in fatalism. me not owning and using a car does have a direct, causal, measurable (albeit minimal) impact on this world's athmosphere, even though it won't stop anyone else from owning a car or polluting, nor will it singlehandedly save this world. me setting an example for other people might be a meaningful way of achieving slow yet sustainable change. we all know that ideologies do spread like wildfire, but this obviously goes both ways. schlaufuchs said that our best tool is collective action, and I agree. the basis for that action is, in my opinion, a critical mass of people with a different set of ideas.

I agree with this. I mean, I feel a sense of moral responsibility to avoid using Amazon if possible. But I'm not going to say that other people are morally failing if they do use Amazon.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I read recently that more than half of the CO2 output in the world is from a tiny minority of rich people. But hey let's take away a necessary accessibility tool in order to help the environment.

Since you mentioned this issue some time ago, I've been trying to educate the anti-plastic straw contingent on CBC.ca, because they don't understand and honestly couldn't give half a damn that some people need straws to ingest liquid, and for various reasons can't use the reusable ones or other non-plastic alternatives. I'm not in this situation myself, but I am willing to shout it from the rooftops and beyond on behalf of those who are.

Well I've often claimed I care about economics more than social justice.

Economics to me means things like wages and conditions.

Any liberal to me that defends Amazon is a hypocrite. Personally I don't buy from them unless I have no choice.

I make do with less. There's stuff you want and stuff you need.

Note that's if you have no choice part. I haven't used Amazon in years.

It's one of the worst examples of employee conditions and work environment.

I don't judge you if you have to use it or minimize using it. If you defend it though and otherwise call yourself a liberal though you're a hypocrite.

Yes, you appear to be very judgmental.

It must be nice to be able to run out and get what you need locally and be able to afford it. Not everyone is in that situation, and as others have said, "Amazon-shaming" doesn't help.

Can you think of any company on the planet that is 100% ethical, in sourcing their materials, products, working conditions, and wages? I can't. You might as well say that if you don't like plastic pollution or heavy metal pollution, don't use computers. Don't like rising levels of CO₂? Quit breathing.

For someone like me who doesn't drive, lives too far from the mall to reasonably walk (it isn't safe for anyone to have to cross the highway, let alone someone who uses a mobility aid), and has limited capacity for using a bus (can't bring home any more than what I can carry since the driver will not help), online shopping has made a huge difference.

I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not being dismissive of the "mom and pop" retail stores that were dismissed upthread. I used to have a one-person home crafting business, so I'd be upset if anything like the things I made were being sold for either an outrageously cheap price or an outrageously huge price, with shoddy workmanship. I have things I made for my own use that have lasted over 25 years and are still in good shape. If someone else were to make something from the same commercial pattern I used, I would be able to tell the difference between that and my own work, and I never took the lazy way out.

So there are some things still not available on Amazon, and I'm glad of that. Part of the appeal of doing a custom order is talking to the customer about it and finding out more besides what colors they want, and getting creative. There was one time when I had a commission to create a kleenex box cover of horses, and since I don't have much familiarity with real horses, it took a combination of my dad's advice, a sketch, and studying several front covers of Louis L'Amour novels to get the right design. The result was a completely unique piece, which may never be replicated because I have no idea if I still have the pattern I drew out on graph paper. I'd be annoyed beyond belief if such a thing were ever to end up on Amazon. I stitched that item over 20 years ago, and I'm still proud of it. Kleenex box covers aren't particularly difficult in and of themselves, but that was a difficult pattern to create.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

I had a choking incident when a paper straw literally fell apart in my mouth. There was also a woman who died from using a metal straw.

 

[Farm Boy]

All you need to know is that it reinvented something that was already happening, but this time it could run its competitors out of business by chewing losses subsidized with webhosting empire. Amazon is the compete and abject failure of regulation.

 

[Narz]

is Walmart less evil than Amazon?

If I had a local herbalist and weaver I could support yeah f*** Amazon.

Costco probably less evil than Amazon but they don't have everything

Ist choice is to reduce my consumption but I do get some stuff on zon

 

[Narz]

I had a choking incident when a paper straw literally fell apart in my mouth. There was also a woman who died from using a metal straw.

But how do the #'s compare to fork fatalities?

 

[innonimatu]

Well I've often claimed I care about economics more than social justice.

Economics to me means things like wages and conditions.

Any liberal to me that defends Amazon is a hypocrite. Personally I don't buy from them unless I have no choice.

I make do with less. There's stuff you want and stuff you need.

Note that's if you have no choice part. I haven't used Amazon in years.

It's one of the worst examples of employee conditions and work environment.

I don't judge you if you have to use it or minimize using it. If you defend it though and otherwise call yourself a liberal though you're a hypocrite.

I agree with this feeling, and think that knowing your hypocrites is necessary when attempting to organize anything political.
The truth is that most people don't care about strangers' wages and conditions, and those who don't care can't be counted on to help end the Amazons of out world.

Yes, people should be judgemental about this, at least those people who are in politics for changing the balance of power for labour. The "liberals" who buy from Amazon superfluous stuff, for convenience, knowing full well how evil the corporation is, are not and will not be allies. They may be your occasional supporters, but within a political party they'll be the supporters of the Tony Blairs and Clintons.

 

[Ajidica]

I try and avoid Amazon except for buying things that simply aren't available in my area, like books that have been out of print for decades. (Indeed, based on them not showing up for potential inter-library loan through a university library, I might have the only copy in the upper midwest.)

 

[Lexicus]

Can you think of any company on the planet that is 100% ethical, in sourcing their materials, products, working conditions, and wages? I can't. You might as well say that if you don't like plastic pollution or heavy metal pollution, don't use computers. Don't like rising levels of CO2? Quit breathing.

Yes of course! Everything is exactly the same as everything else! Why haven't I ever realized this?

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Don't like rising levels of CO2? Quit breathing.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

But how do the #'s compare to fork fatalities?

Not funny. People can eat without forks, and did so for millennia. Aimee is talking about people who literally cannot drink out of cups or glasses, and therefore straws are their only option. Of the various materials straws are made of, plastic is the least harmful to humans (though I do understand it is harmful to the environment). This is something I wish that kid Greta Thunberg would understand, because while I give her E for effort, there are times when I find her lacking in understanding of the wider picture, as well as empathy.

The "liberals" who buy from Amazon superfluous stuff, for convenience, knowing full well how evil the corporation is, are not and will not be allies. They may be your occasional supporters, but within a political party they'll be the supporters of the Tony Blairs and Clintons.

TIL that I cannot both have an Amazon account and vote NDP or Green. Go figure.

I try and avoid Amazon except for buying things that simply aren't available in my area, like books that have been out of print for decades. (Indeed, based on them not showing up for potential inter-library loan through a university library, I might have the only copy in the upper midwest.)

Funny how I can't go into Chapters and buy an e-book without also buying the reader that is sold there. I have multiple e-options for Amazon, which has been handy since it's easier to lose a Kindle than an entire computer.

Yes of course! Everything is exactly the same as everything else! Why haven't I ever realized this?

And my point goes whooshing overhead, waving bye-bye, without having been understood...

I never said everything is exactly the same as everything else. I said I can't think of any company that is 100% ethical. This doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for Amazon drivers (though it was bemusing when the driver who delivered something earlier today asked if my name was "Bashir"; seriously, do I look like a Middle-Eastern man, when I'm obviously a non-Middle-Eastern woman?).

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Funny how I can't go into Chapters and buy an e-book without also buying the reader that is sold there. I have multiple e-options for Amazon, which has been handy since it's easier to lose a Kindle than an entire computer.

FWIW, you can buy a Chapters Indigo gift card and then use it on the Kobo site.

I have eBooks from both Kobo and Amazon and I just strip the DRM in them and use Calibre to manage them both. Can read on the computer or my eReader.