Ethnicity of the Military - coups

Dirar

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
3
Lets say I'm playing Germany. During an invasion of France I tend to raise troops from French occupied cities so that they are ready at the front line. As the war progresses, the "ethnically" German troops will die out and slowly the German Empire will have a French army. This is unrealistic.

The game should have procedures in place whereby the French army will defect, or even overthrow the German govt and install a French govt (the player obviously loses).
 
Welcome to the forums. :wavey:

I like the idea of ethnicity as a concept alongside culture in the game, so long as it can be implemented in a non-controversial manner. This would be a good idea to an extent, although it could become rather tedious (having to check the ethnic composition of your army all the time), and would need to be limited, so you didn't get an uprising occur whenever there is a large ethnic minority in your forces.
 
Lets say I'm playing Germany. During an invasion of France I tend to raise troops from French occupied cities so that they are ready at the front line. As the war progresses, the "ethnically" German troops will die out and slowly the German Empire will have a French army. This is unrealistic.

It would seem so, in modern times, over short periods. But actually, it happened alot in history. The situation you describe actually did happen. Who were the Franks? Germans. A powerful, but small, tribe of Germans. They conquered the Romano-Gallic population (which was considerably larger than their own population) of what had been Gaul, and, to make a long story short (omitting chapters like the Burgundians and Aquitanians and all that), the end result was the French.

There are alot of different things that can happen. Here's a few.

Elitism

The conquering group become the ruling class; the conquered become the foot-soldiers. This is possible because the leaders of the conquered are all wiped out and the only ones left to organize them are the conquerors. This is uncommon in the modern era, because people have different beliefs about their role in society, and are capable of organizing themselves if they have to.

But in times past, the masses were often organized into strict classes or castes and commoners were indoctrinated to believe that they could only follow. This was very, very common; even among groups that weren't all that organized (eg the Celts, who were organized into strict, colour-coded castes; your caste determined how many and what colours you were allowed to wear).

Extermination

Rare! Very rare. It did happen, but not as often as people think.

What happens here is that the conquerers wipe out the natives completely and settle their land, with no interbreeding or assimilation happening. This was rare because before the modern era, it was hard to do, and it was even harder to stop one's soldiers and settlers from taking women.

Weak Assimilation

Over a period of time, the two groups fuse their identity. This can be like in ancient Rome, where Etruscans or Celtic groups in the Po Valley eventually come to be totally Roman and completely forget their previous culture. It isn't always the conquered who get assimilated, either. Sometimes, it happens the other way around and the conquerors are the ones who assimilate. This happened to the descendants of Strongbow and the Hiberno-Norman lords who invaded Ireland in the Middle Ages, for example.

Strong Assimilation

Some people might call this "cultural genocide". This is where the culture, but not the people, is deliberately stamped out. Probably the best example is the Inca. When they conquered an area, they separated everyone (especially families) and resettled them, scattering them across their empire. They were forced to speak Quechua (the Incan tongue), and their history was forbidden and erased. Rather than resettling them as groups or communities, each individual was separated out and resettled with a sort of commune or work unit that formed the basis of the Incan society, and they were responsible to indoctrinate the new peon. This was highly effective. The cultures and identities of the conquered groups vanished, practically immediately, yet the state still got the additional population to add to its labour force.
 
I don't think it is a good idea to have ethnicity in the game as something that you as the player can control. Whilst usually I am against anything that doesn't allow you to have control over the game, this is kinda different. Some people would simulate the genocide of whichever ethnicity they hate. The game shouldn't pander to those sort of racist wet dreams. If ethnicity is a feature in the game, it's spread should be based purely on game mechanics, like culture is now, kinda. You can manipulate the mechanics in order to obtain a certain result, but you cannot explicitly control the cultural levels in a city.
 
I think razing the cities of other nations could also been as fulfilling racist w*t dreams. It's a game I'd take historical accuracy over political correctness any day and the fact is that many people committed atrocious acts against their enemies from Joshua to Saddam genocide is a part of history.

That said if someone does use this game to fulfill some crazy genocidal fantasy they need serious help.
 
Well, yes, I can agree to an extent, but the developers are never going to put something in the game that explicitly allows for negative headlines like, "Game allows player to recreate Holocaust", or in the case of a poorly implemented ethnicity system, "Game allows for ethnic cleansing". Not good for business.
 
Soooo...

How would this make the game more fun?
How you implement it?
 
Well, yes, I can agree to an extent, but the developers are never going to put advanced level something to making this game .
 
The idea is pretty good but I don't think the developers would do it either, it could be created in a mod, but in the actual game would be too controversial
 
culture and ethnicity are largely the same; take Turkey for example. No one would argue the point that there exists a 'Turkish ethnicity'. But the ethnic history the population of Turkey is largely the legacy of the Greeks and native Anatolians from eras long past- the genetic legacy of the 'original Turks' is one that is tiny - less then 1-in-12 for male descent (Y chromosome lineage), with it being slightly more for those of female descent. (X chromosome lineage)

Meaning that the modern Ethnicity of Turkey (and much of the world, for that matter) is based solely on cultural constructs, and that culture alone is adequate to represent ethnicity.
 
Yeah, I don't really see any gain in trying to separate ethnicity and culture. They both really represent the same thing in-game. Genetics are pretty meaningless.

In terms of the above options, extermination is very rare, and nearly always happens vs "barbarian" type factions that are massively technologically inferior (like native north Americans vs 17th/18th century colonists), almost unheard of between technological equals (mongols wiped out particular cities of technological equals that resisted, but mostly they moved on (Baghdad) or locals assimilated (Golden Horde) or the mongols were assimilated (China). Elitism and assimilation aren't always easily separable, and one often blends into the other. Consider the Normal conquest of England; a few generations of Elitism (while the invader's culture is still low relative to the local's) and then eventual merging.
 
I think razing the cities of other nations could also been as fulfilling racist w*t dreams. It's a game I'd take historical accuracy over political correctness any day .......

Great point about the razing of cities. Also, why do we have to be mentally controlled with PC even in a game? Pc here means that the designer gets to be a god
 
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