European thread

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Portuguese


Example: Spain always don't honour it's word about water with Portugal and it has even move rivers to the south desrespecting agreements with us. In 13th century (or 19th, or...) it would have been a war. Today, we just put a charge in the EU about it...

EU is the soluction and WILL prevail.

First (and foremost) of all, I agree with you (and all other people) that the EU is the way to deal with problems in Europe. I hope in the future, we'll have a United States of Europe

And about your example, it's not only a example about problems that UE must deal with, but also a example of how bad our countries are performing their relations.

Many spaniards don't care about Portugal; the only city that they know is Lisboa, and they know few things about Portugal (for example, you will amazing how less spaniards know about the time that Philip II order to invade your country, or about Ceuta, or Olivenza or Enrique el Navegate [I don't know how to write it on portuguese]...).

I firmly belive that Spain and Portugal must work together, a EU is a good frame to do it. We must stop to move rivers, some of your people must stop to be afraid of Spain investiments, some of my people must learn about Portugal contributions to history (I don't understand why you are not on Civ3, Civ2, PTW...)...


Returing to topic, and in short, I firmly believe that EU is the good way to build a new, better Europe.

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by yaroslav

or Enrique el Navegate [I don't know how to write it on portuguese]...).

Infante D. Henrique, o Navegador
(Hey, have you seen my title? )

Originally posted by yaroslav

And about your example, it's not only a example about problems that UE must deal with, but also a example of how bad our countries are performing their relations.

Many spaniards don't care about Portugal; the only city that they know is Lisboa, and they know few things about Portugal (for example, you will amazing how less spaniards know about the time that Philip II order to invade your country, or about Ceuta, or Olivenza or Enrique el Navegate [I don't know how to write it on portuguese]...).

I firmly belive that Spain and Portugal must work together, a EU is a good frame to do it. We must stop to move rivers, some of your people must stop to be afraid of Spain investiments, some of my people must learn about Portugal contributions to history (I don't understand why you are not on Civ3, Civ2, PTW...)...

I already knew that Spaniards do not care about us, but it's good to update info.

Good to know that there are people like you in that country. And that you know that "the rivers thing" is really annoying.

Portugal will be afraid from Spain investments till we see changes in Spanish mentality, what doesn't seem likelly to hapen...
As we say:"From Spain, neither good wind, nor good weddings"
(seems better in Portuguese...)

I don't understand either why my CIV is not in Civilization series... maybe we were too peacefull...

BTW, strange nick for a Spanish!?! Have you Russian ascendance or something?

Originally posted by yaroslav

First (and foremost) of all, I agree with you (and all other people) that the EU is the way to deal with problems in Europe. I hope in the future, we'll have a United States of Europe
(...)
Returing to topic, and in short, I firmly believe that EU is the good way to build a new, better Europe.

Like to see people from this side of Atlantic think this way...

You're kinda cool spaniard

 

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Portuguese


Infante D. Henrique, o Navegador
(Hey, have you seen my title? )

Thank you for the info (BTW, for me it's easy to read portuguese, [subtitles on RPT, for example]). I suposse that you will find not very difficult to read Spanish...

Originally posted by Portuguese
I already knew that Spaniards do not care about us, but it's good to update info.

Good to know that there are people like you in that country. And that you know that "the rivers thing" is really annoying.[/B]

I suposse that is annoying...

Originally posted by Portuguese
Portugal will be afraid from Spain investments till we see changes in Spanish mentality, what doesn't seem likelly to hapen...
As we say:"From Spain, neither good wind, nor good weddings"
(seems better in Portuguese...).[/B]

In fact, I've read some times about this phrase (From Spain...) I believe that we, both countries, needs to change his mentality. Spain must care about Portugal, must acknowlegdes his history, his culture, and so on; and Portugal, in my humble opinion - I hope I will not offend you - must see us more like a good friend like a threat (Yes, I know that in the past we were, but now...)

Originally posted by Portuguese
I don't understand either why my CIV is not in Civilization series... maybe we were too peacefull...[/B]

Spain was not on Civ1 not on Civ3 (but on Civ2 and PTW). But doesn't matter: Portugal (or Spain) deserves a place on Civ3 much more that Iroquies, in my humble opinion.

Originally posted by Portuguese
BTW, strange nick for a Spanish!?! Have you Russian ascendance or something?[/B]

Not. I know - it's somewhat confusing. I choose this nick after reading a Rusian history book. Bad choice. All people get confused. But some people knows me as yaroslav (for example, on Apoly), so I will not change.

Originally posted by Portuguese
Like to see people from this side of Atlantic think this way...

You're kinda cool spaniard [/B]

Thank you

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by yaroslav

Thank you for the info (BTW, for me it's easy to read portuguese, [subtitles on RPT, for example]). I suposse that you will find not very difficult to read Spanish...

I suposse that is annoying...

In fact, I've read some times about this phrase (From Spain...) I believe that we, both countries, needs to change his mentality. Spain must care about Portugal, must acknowlegdes his history, his culture, and so on; and Portugal, in my humble opinion - I hope I will not offend you - must see us more like a good friend like a threat (Yes, I know that in the past we were, but now...)

Spain was not on Civ1 not on Civ3 (but on Civ2 and PTW). But doesn't matter: Portugal (or Spain) deserves a place on Civ3 much more that Iroquies, in my humble opinion.

Not. I know - it's somewhat confusing. I choose this nick after reading a Rusian history book. Bad choice. All people get confused. But some people knows me as yaroslav (for example, on Apoly), so I will not change.

Thank you

Humble spanish, hum... Good, for a change.

I'm used that Spanish can't (or fake they can't...) read Portuguese.
Of course I give some touches in Spanish. I live near "Galicia" and so I understand quite a bit, especially big sentences, where the context helps...

Of course it is annoying. Imagine the exact opposite.
And as fas as I know that issue it's not pacific even inside Spain...

No, not offended. The question is: Spain passed last 900 years trying to assimilate us. Therefore it's not from day to night that results can be achieved...
More, Spanish people always treat Portuguese people as... I don't know... stupid or something. Kinda if Spanish were superior. Of course that kind of attitudes don't help...
(I saw this days that Aznar is humiliating Basque, Catalunya and Galicia's pride with that Flag issue: it seems Portugal is not the only target for Madrid. See what I mean...)
Hope to see other kind of attitude from Madrid. Till then...
When Madrid change it's attitude (and give back Olivença...) I don't see why to don't change ours to Spanish.
That's why I don't agree very much with that "now".

Hope things to change...

Yeah, Portugal and Spain should be in! Who are the Iroquois or Zulus or...
Portugal and Spain rulled THE WORLD back in history. We "play the world". Not them! Not to speak of Ottomans, Cartaginians, Vikings,...

The nick is cool. The only counter is that no one will associate with a person like you. Don't bother: you like it, you use it, it's OK.

No need to thanks
Normally the Spanish are... different. Good to know you.

Just curious: From which region are you from?

 

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Portuguese


Humble spanish, hum... Good, for a change.

I'm used that Spanish can't (or fake they can't...) read Portuguese.
Of course I give some touches in Spanish. I live near "Galicia" and so I understand quite a bit, especially big sentences, where the context helps...

I think that this is changing. For example, in the Spanish forum (on Apoly) we have copy&paste a portuguese interview with Firaxis, and we have comment it.

And you know, Galician (from Galicia) language is, in some ways, like Portugeses, so people from Galicia can with no many dificulties read Portuguese

Originally posted by Portuguese

Of course it is annoying. Imagine the exact opposite.
And as fas as I know that issue it's not pacific even inside Spain...

Yes, the governement have tried to move water from Ebro River to other parts of Spain, that are more dry than the rest of the country. Spain is a dry country on her center and south, much more dry than Portugal (well, I don't know all Portugal, but the little part that I know is much more "green" that Spain); that is the reason for the governement to do that. But I understand the problems that it causes to the people on Ebro Valley, so I understand even more the people of other country...

Originally posted by Portuguese

No, not offended. The question is: Spain passed last 900 years trying to assimilate us. Therefore it's not from day to night that results can be achieved...
More, Spanish people always treat Portuguese people as... I don't know... stupid or something. Kinda if Spanish were superior. Of course that kind of attitudes don't help...

I've not seen this actitude. I can be wrong (many times I'm wrong), but I think that Spanish people have changed their actitudes since democracy arrives. But if a Spanish any time offend you, I beg your pardon (I don't know if it is usefull, but...)

Originally posted by Portuguese

(I saw this days that Aznar is humiliating Basque, Catalunya and Galicia's pride with that Flag issue: it seems Portugal is not the only target for Madrid. See what I mean...)
Hope to see other kind of attitude from Madrid. Till then...

President Aznar is not very intelligent with this affairs. But, after many people (even the PSOE, the opposition) cry about it, I hope Aznar will not repeat it!

Originally posted by Portuguese

When Madrid change it's attitude (and give back Olivença...) I don't see why to don't change ours to Spanish.
That's why I don't agree very much with that "now"....
Hope things to change...

Well, as I have said before, Spanish people must pay more attention to Portugal. But I also think that to build confidence both country must pust effort on it (one more that other, yes...)


QUOTE]Originally posted by Portuguese

Yeah, Portugal and Spain should be in! Who are the Iroquois or Zulus or...
Portugal and Spain rulled THE WORLD back in history. We "play the world". Not them! Not to speak of Ottomans, Cartaginians, Vikings,...[/QUOTE]

That's exactly my argument...

Originally posted by Portuguese

The nick is cool. The only counter is that no one will associate with a person like you. Don't bother: you like it, you use it, it's OK.

No need to thanks
Normally the Spanish are... different. Good to know you.

I think that I'm not special. Many Spaniards (and many people in the world) are like me...

Originally posted by Portuguese

Just curious: From which region are you from?

From Andalucia, the south part of Spain. I'm from Malaga, famous capital of Sun Coast

Edit: BTW, I live near a street that is named after Juan Sebastian El Cano, assistant of Magallanes

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by yaroslav


I think that this is changing. For example, in the Spanish forum (on Apoly) we have copy&paste a portuguese interview with Firaxis, and we have comment it.

And you know, Galician (from Galicia) language is, in some ways, like Portugeses, so people from Galicia can with no many dificulties read Portuguese

Yes, the governement have tried to move water from Ebro River to other parts of Spain, that are more dry than the rest of the country. Spain is a dry country on her center and south, much more dry than Portugal (well, I don't know all Portugal, but the little part that I know is much more "green" that Spain); that is the reason for the governement to do that. But I understand the problems that it causes to the people on Ebro Valley, so I understand even more the people of other country...

I've not seen this actitude. I can be wrong (many times I'm wrong), but I think that Spanish people have changed their actitudes since democracy arrives. But if a Spanish any time offend you, I beg your pardon (I don't know if it is usefull, but...)

President Aznar is not very intelligent with this affairs. But, after many people (even the PSOE, the opposition) cry about it, I hope Aznar will not repeat it!

Well, as I have said before, Spanish people must pay more attention to Portugal. But I also think that to build confidence both country must pust effort on it (one more that other, yes...)

That's exactly my argument...

I think that I'm not special. Many Spaniards (and many people in the world) are like me...

From Andalucia, the south part of Spain. I'm from Malaga, famous capital of Sun Coast

Edit: BTW, I live near a street that is named after Juan Sebastian El Cano, assistant of Magallanes

Can I have a link to that interview? I'd like to read it very much...
(An interview in Portuguese?!? Who speaks Portuguese in Firaxis?!?)


Galicia is my favourite part of Spain of course. I already heard they would prefer to speak Portuguese to Spanish . I like Galicia very much, and not only for being close of it!!!


The question is not Ebro. The question here in Portugal is Douro and GUADIANA!!! It has so few water that any modification could prove disaster (now we'll see Alqueva's dam effect...)


No need to beg pardon as you are a very person!


Aznar is trying to stay in history. I think he'll stay in a very bad way for Spain...


I'll do my part if I see or talk with more people like you


At least you have the consolation of having Spain in PTW...
Sid is bad...


I'm looking forward to meet more like you. As I'm doing economics in University, I'll sure meet more Spanish people. I sincerely hope them to be as you, but I'm affraid they'll not be. Let's not be pessimist: they'll be!!! (cross my fingers )


Malaga is hot
Andalucia is maybe a little too hot


I've always have found that name funny
(English traduction for viewers of this posts: Juan Sebastial, the Pipe)


Ok, now backing on topic:
So, what do you think of UE?
Do you think it will work with more 10 countries?
Are you seing troubles ahead for Iberian economy?
Ar you in favour or against?

 

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Portuguese


Can I have a link to that interview? I'd like to read it very much...
(An interview in Portuguese?!? Who speaks Portuguese in Firaxis?!?)

Well, I don't know if the interview is directly on Portuguse or a translation. My sources tells me that the interview is on http://www.civ3.com.br/ptw.asp

but I can't find it. I'm sure that you will find it...

But if you want, you can read some parts of it on

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64727&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by Portuguese


Galicia is my favourite part of Spain of course. I already heard they would prefer to speak Portuguese to Spanish . I like Galicia very much, and not only for being close of it!!!

I like Galicia also. Well, I think that I like all Iberian Peninsule - or maybe all the world...

Originally posted by Portuguese

The question is not Ebro. The question here in Portugal is Douro and GUADIANA!!! It has so few water that any modification could prove disaster (now we'll see Alqueva's dam effect...)

Yeah. I only give you an example of internal problems: Ebro river dismbarck on mediterranean sea. It's an example of waters movements.

Originally posted by Portuguese

Aznar is trying to stay in history. I think he'll stay in a very bad way for Spain...

Yes, he's trying. The reason is that he promised that we will govern only eigth years maximun (like an american president), so he is seeking for a place in history.Well, he was the president when Spain take Euro as a coin, so I suposse that the place is assured

Originally posted by Portuguese

At least you have the consolation of having Spain in PTW...
Sid is bad...

Yes, and he is bad since the first time... Do you remember Colonization? Well, there was Spain, England, French and Holland, but not Portugal! What about Brazil?

Originally posted by Portuguese

Malaga is hot
Andalucia is maybe a little too hot

German, French and England tourists like it a lot and comes all years. Yes, I think that is too hot, but as far as tourist like it...

Originally posted by Portuguese


Ok, now backing on topic:
So, what do you think of UE?
Do you think it will work with more 10 countries?
Are you seing troubles ahead for Iberian economy?
Ar you in favour or against?

I think that UE is a way to stop stupid figth and wars, and to bring peace the best way we can; EU will allow

1) A common market (good for economics)
2) More interlinks between europeans: A way to make friends and stops stupid wars. Some pleople have says that all europeans wars are somewhat of civils wars...

I believe that it'll work with 10 more countries, but I don't know if the current structure is correct.. In fact, I'll love a more powerfull European Parlament, with a president democratically elected

Iberians economy have beneficied much with European union. I know that the future is a little dark, because we recieve money from Europeans funds that in the future will go to East Countries, that are more poor than us. But in the past we recieve those money: it's fair that the new countries recieve it now. The objective must be, that in the future, all countries go to average. In fact, some parts of Spain [Valencia, IIRC] (sorry, I have not information about Portugual) have reached the 75% average of EU, so funds have help us!

I'm in favour of Europe. More europe, better for economy, for people, for peace.

The more, the merrier

 

[Portuguese]

Originally posted by yaroslav


Well, I don't know if the interview is directly on Portuguse or a translation. My sources tells me that the interview is on http://www.civ3.com.br/ptw.asp

but I can't find it. I'm sure that you will find it...

But if you want, you can read some parts of it on

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64727&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

Thx. I'll investigate a bit now.

Even if it is only a translation it is a bit too good to be true... Normally Portuguese is ignored in this kind of situations.

Originally posted by yaroslav

I like Galicia also. Well, I think that I like all Iberian Peninsule - or maybe all the world...

I like your spirit. I'm not exactly like that. Although I have no reasons to hate any place...
I just like some ones more than others...

Originally posted by yaroslav

Yeah. I only give you an example of internal problems: Ebro river dismbarck on mediterranean sea. It's an example of waters movements.

No more need to be said here...

Originally posted by yaroslav

Yes, he's trying. The reason is that he promised that we will govern only eigth years maximun (like an american president), so he is seeking for a place in history.Well, he was the president when Spain take Euro as a coin, so I suposse that the place is assured

I'm sure that if he knew he was going to be elected he wouldn't promise that...
Yes, his place is assured. € is sure important in Europe's history!
I have a doubt here: Why do you call it president?!?
Spain have a King and he is the Prime minister. Is he not?

Originally posted by yaroslav

Yes, and he is bad since the first time... Do you remember Colonization? Well, there was Spain, England, French and Holland, but not Portugal! What about Brazil?

That was the biggest SID error till date:

Who the Hell were Holland and France to be even compared to Portuguese possessions!?!?!?!?

Brasil is that BIG thing on South America's Map! Impossible to fail.
Louisiana and that Dutch cities were not even close to BRAZILian size!

Originally posted by yaroslav

German, French and England tourists like it a lot and comes all years. Yes, I think that is too hot, but as far as tourist like it...

I went to Alentejo the last summer and I almost melted. Boy that's hot...
Of course that Alentejo is less developed and Andalucia has more to offer to tourists! And we have much more places to rest from the sun...
Since 1975 that Alentejo has becoming desertic land...

Originally posted by yaroslav

I think that UE is a way to stop stupid figth and wars, and to bring peace the best way we can; EU will allow

1) A common market (good for economics)
2) More interlinks between europeans: A way to make friends and stops stupid wars. Some pleople have says that all europeans wars are somewhat of civils wars...

I believe that it'll work with 10 more countries, but I don't know if the current structure is correct.. In fact, I'll love a more powerfull European Parlament, with a president democratically elected

Iberians economy have beneficied much with European union. I know that the future is a little dark, because we recieve money from Europeans funds that in the future will go to East Countries, that are more poor than us. But in the past we recieve those money: it's fair that the new countries recieve it now. The objective must be, that in the future, all countries go to average. In fact, some parts of Spain [Valencia, IIRC] (sorry, I have not information about Portugual) have reached the 75% average of EU, so funds have help us!

I'm in favour of Europe. More europe, better for economy, for people, for peace.

The more, the merrier

Numbers do not care if you have the correct idea about it

Portugal is not prepared. If 2006 is the end of Brussels river of funds, Portugal will experience dificulties! Even more of them.

I heard that Spanish Budget is a bit weird in the times we face:
More investment, less taxes, no deficit... Is that true or reasonable?
On your side of the border, economy seems to be kicking...

Of course I know enlargement is unavoidable and benefic in the long term, but it'll penalize us in the short term and I'm finishing my degree so... it couldn't come in a worst time for me...

I hope I'll have lucky...

 

[flash9286]

the max time in office for a Amercian president is 10 year not eight

 

[Portuguese]

He wanted to mean two mandates.
Although you are right, of course...

Hey, do you read this enormous posts? I only read them because I was in the discussion here. I must admit they are toooooo big.

 

[flash9286]

no i was just scanning them and say the 8yrs and thought i would correct it, The title was too vague so i wanted to see what the posts were about

 

[willemvanoranje]

don't you think the European Union is just another logical, evlutional step? In the middle ages feudalism ruled Europe, very small pieces of land owned by one man, who had a king, but was free to choice not to engage in battle for him. Then centralism made it's mark on Europe, first in France and Spain, later in other countries as well. It began to become a unity more. The next step was nationalism, every nation was trying to get it's own state, and in the Balkan and Eastern-Europe, that turned out very well. Of course the nationalism was abused too, but that would be another thread. From very small areas of land to centralization to states: from Lyon, to France....from small pieces of land, to small country to the Germany as it is today. Isn't the next step European Union?

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by willemvanoranje
From very small areas of land to centralization to states: from Lyon, to France....from small pieces of land, to small country to the Germany as it is today. Isn't the next step European Union?

Would you predict a world government within the next few hundred years, which is surely the next logical step in your argument?

 

[willemvanoranje]

I certainly predict a world government one day. I couldn't tell if that will be in the next few hundred years, I think it would take more like a thousand years. However, things can happen of course, maybe we will have destroyed ourselves before that day.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

how will a world government work who will be its leader let me c communsit china working with democratic america nice one

 

[willemvanoranje]

who says america will be democratic and who says china will be communist in 1,000 years? 1,000 years ago China was a monarchy (emperor) and the US didn't even excist, what makes you think the world will be the same in 1,000 years if the world today isn't even the same as 50 years ago.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

hopefully america wont exist in the next 100 years think of the problems they have caused this world

 

[Rodgers]

Lets see, a large collection of states bound together by an overarching legal framework. The southern states tend to feel seperated from the north both economically and culturally and the eastern half views the western half as affluent, but decadent and spoilt. The central bureaucracy annoys many of it's citizens, who would like to see an end to such "interference". In some rural areas there are isolated right wing fanatics who foster a fanatical hatred and suspicion of that bureaucracy - they want to withdraw from the arrangement altogether and "go it alone".

How could any American criticise THAT?

 

[Pillager]

hopefully america wont exist in the next 100 years think of the problems they have caused this world

I'm trying to, but the best I can come up with is McDonalds...

Originally posted by Rodgers
Lets see, a large collection of states bound together by an overarching legal framework. The southern states tend to feel seperated from the north both economically and culturally and the eastern half views the western half as affluent, but decadent and spoilt. The central bureaucracy annoys many of it's citizens, who would like to see an end to such "interference". In some rural areas there are isolated right wing fanatics who foster a fanatical hatred and suspicion of that bureaucracy - they want to withdraw from the arrangement altogether and "go it alone".

How could any American criticise THAT?

Good point.

 

[insurgent]

Originally posted by Rodgers
Lets see, a large collection of states bound together by an overarching legal framework. The southern states tend to feel seperated from the north both economically and culturally and the eastern half views the western half as affluent, but decadent and spoilt. The central bureaucracy annoys many of it's citizens, who would like to see an end to such "interference". In some rural areas there are isolated right wing fanatics who foster a fanatical hatred and suspicion of that bureaucracy - they want to withdraw from the arrangement altogether and "go it alone".

How could any American criticise THAT?

You're right as always!