Evidence for creationism, Part 2.

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random mutations + natural selection + deep time= the supposed debunking of all creation evidence.

How exactly can one debunk something which does not exist? No evidence has been presented for Creationism in the last 2000 posts.

If you had any understanding of logic you would see that even if the Theory of Evolution was somehow falsified, that would not be any evidence for Creationism.

The arguments of the Creationists in this thread are pathetic. If it wasn't against the rules and my ethics, I'd be tempted to make a second account and argue in favor of Creationism to show that there is a way to make decent arguments for it.
 
How exactly can one debunk something which does not exist? No evidence has been presented for Creationism in the last 2000 posts.

If you had any understanding of logic you would see that even if the Theory of Evolution was somehow falsified, that would not be any evidence for Creationism.

The arguments of the Creationists in this thread are pathetic. If it wasn't against the rules and my ethics, I'd be tempted to make a second account and argue in favor of Creationism to show that there is a way to make decent arguments for it.

Maybe you should just end your posts on your regular account with /anti-Uppi?

I'd be interested in hearing a sound arguement for Creationism. That is, not one that tries to falsify science, but actually tries to present evidence of the age of the universe, or even photographic evidence of the prime mover, etc...
 
in order for this butterfly to evolve it must have know all the the properties of the Electromagnetic spectrum(light) beforehand. there is No Way this could have evolved through genetic mistakes over millions of years. Since you guys say the facts speak for themselves then this fact screams of an all knowing designer.

I'm fairly certain of asking for proof for creation, not masses of irrelevant information about butterflies that understand electromagnetic theory, giraffes with necks like Dhalsim and the amusing theory that somehow Y-Adam and M-Eve were the same Biblical figures, despite being separated by 40,000 years of history.

If Creationists only ever answer one question in 4000+ posts, I'd like it to be about proof for creation, not anything to do with evolution or genetic studies.
 
Either magicfan is deliberately insulting my intelligence by ignoring everything I say, or he's insulting his own intelligence by continuing to post the same unsupported nonsense that's already been torn down, buzzed apart by chainsaws, covered in gasoline, set ablaze, and had 3 dozen Croatian midgets take steaming dumps all over it.

My main complaint is that he seems to have no idea what the difference between some and all is, and seems to think some genetic disease means that all mutations must be bad and therefore we are all doomed, and therefore evolution can't exist except to destroy us, therefore we were created by a perfect designer (in spite of crippling, degenerative flaws) out of thin freaking air one day using magic instead of the laws of physics he apparently scribbled on the bathroom wall because this designer is a sadistic nonsense peddler who wishes to inflict his brain-destroying schizophrenia on his own creations by creating piles of evidence that the world was created naturally when all he had to do was wriggle his nose and made the world appear to be old for no reason in order to test our credulity faith.

Honestly when it comes to Creationism I have never seen more people more proud to reject so much supporting evidence, connecting logic, and predictive theory, and embrace so little unsupported unprovable mythological contradictory nonsense as unassailable fact. It seems to revel in its own ignorance, a trait which is displayed whenever someone doesn't bother to read, understand, and respond to common criticisms or responses to one's own argument.

Instead of treating the opposing advocate as an equal automatically, with respect for their intelligence, and waiting patiently for them to actually do what the bleeding thread says and present some evidence that the universe popped into existence in a frame of time not supported by science (i.e. last thursday or 6000 years ago) I am going to summarily declare their entire argument to be utter garbage and their capacity to debate to be nonexistent until proven otherwise.

I've been patient for thousands of posts now and I am growing tired of seeing only one side have to give evidence, respond to posts, understand what is being said, or acknowledge when the same arguments are being repeated over and over without an intelligible response. I am growing increasingly weary of the opposing side not getting really easy to understand concepts like "complexity does not necessitate design" or "lack of 100% proof for a scientific theory does not automatically mean a wizard did it" or that instead of arguing your points, you can pass the buck and ask us to do it for you by saying "well science doesn't have answers for everything therefore God must have done it prove me wrong." but perhaps most insultingly of all not bothering to grasp key concepts like natural selection (not simply random chance) or even bothering to read up on logical fallacies before posting.

Most egregious is when someone points out to you that you're making a some/all comparison that doesn't exist, repeating that comparison, and not getting it when they remind you that some does not mean all, and not bothering to respond to the valid points one advocate makes, but instead you just spew more random unsupported "facts" which aren't facts at all which you think proves your case but it fails to do so on any level whatsoever because there is no connecting logic and no supporting evidence and there is a big fat void of anything that could be considered scientific.

I could go off on a tangent here where I explore why some people seem to think that in order to embrace their idea of God they must deny all other ideas, or think that in order for there to be a God, he must have written an infallible book that can never be challenged, and never be altered by human beings, and that all of history must be interpreted literally according to said book or else you're going to the place where the kind and loving father figure will literally torment you forever for using the free will and reasoning ability he supposedly gave to you. But I won't go off on that tangent because it doesn't have anything to do with evidence for creationism, and I think we have proven through exhaustion at least that no creationist anywhere has any rational argument, evidence, or supporting reasoning which in any way calls into question current scientific theories, and cannot even provide a simple reason why creationism and evolution necessarily contradict each other unless you're a Biblical literalist, in which case good luck to you.


I honestly would respect religion more if everything that was sound and rational and logical wasn't constantly under assault by it, and those who didn't believe hadn't been treated like pond scum for the past several thousand years.


Any evidence for creationism, or should the thread title be permanently changed to "Young Earthers disagree with evolution while not understanding key concepts"?
 
Here's how it happened. Giraffes were short-necked, and they saw some tasty tasty fruit hanging from a tree out of reach. So they tried, and concentrated like real hard dude, and then BAM long necks bro. And that's definitely without a doubt how it happened.

?????? unfortunately mutations during mitosis are not passed on to the offspring. plus mutations are random during meiosis.
 
That's not evidence for creation, Magicfan. It's more irrelevant talk about genetic disorders.
 
plus mutations are random during meiosis.

Well, yes and no. There're a variety of mechanisms by which mutations happen, and each of those mechanisms tend to favor specific types of effects. For example, the insulin gene (actually called preproinsulin) exists as one copy in humans. However, there is a type of mutation that can occur that results in a retroposon. This causes the 'completed' gene's mRNA to be converted back into genetic material. And this is why rats and mice have two copies of the insulin gene. Their ancestor suffered a gene duplication event, and this gene was incorporated into that lineage. They have the 'normal' insulin gene that we do, and they have to 'mutated' insulin gene that is due to it being a retroposon.

So, this mutation is 'random', in some ways. But its mechanism is such that you'll mostly get genes duplicated if they have an RNA transcript.

Soares MB, Schon E, Henderson A, Karathanasis SK, Cate R, Zeitlin S, Chirgwin J, Efstratiadis A (1985) RNA-mediated gene duplication: the rat preproinsulin I gene is a functional retroposon. Mol Cell Biol. 5:2090-2103
 
?????? unfortunately mutations during mitosis are not passed on to the offspring. plus mutations are random during meiosis.

Then how do you explain me being friggen 11 feet tall? 11 FEET TALL MANG! Also I can shoot lasers out my eyes now.
 
Magicfan, I ask again, do you have any features you inherited from one of your parents? Like a nose, haircolour or such.

You must have. I have my mother's nose for instance. Looks like a strawberry unfortunately. I'd rather have had the Greek prominent feature dad had.

Now, I'm no giraffe, but regarding your claim: "and the same giraffe would have had to meet a partner with the same exact mutations in order for it to continue through the population. "

How do you explain that?
 
Then how do you explain me being friggen 11 feet tall? 11 FEET TALL MANG! Also I can shoot lasers out my eyes now.

Don't, Owen.

If you respond to a really, really bad argument by just posting nonsense, then you've surrendered the debate to him on his terms.

Basically, by every conceivable measure; style, substance, evidence, coherence, and adhering to debate rules, logic, and avoiding fallacy, this whole thread and the one before it has been an absurdly one-sided bloody curb-stomp all over every single creationist argument without exception, and generally made one side of the debate look as though they've missed at least a third of their formal education.

This hasn't even been a won debate, it's been a massacre; but what do you expect? This whole thing has been a trap from the very start. The premise is a trap: Evidence for creationism (meaning: GOD) which there is no such thing and there never will be (and that is why God isn't scientific) and that's why there is no real Creationist response here except to pick at science's lack of total knowledge and 100% proof while deftly avoiding acknowledging the giant pile of quicksand that the creationist viewpoint is standing on, where logic goes to die, and the gigantic pile of absolutely nothing that can be presented as evidence, hypothesis, connective reasoning, or reasonable conclusions from their side of the debate.

This is why this stuff does not belong in a classroom. The entire premise of religious faith is based upon feeling, intuition, and irrational certainty in a thing which other people have feelings, intuitions, and irrational certainty that directly and totally contradicts basically everything that a person thinks he or she "knows" about the supernatural, which means that in the game of faith, several billion people are going to be horribly incorrect even if one of them happened to be correct. And even though there isn't a string of logic that can be pieced together to support the theory, people are willing to declare that they know they are right, everyone else must be wrong, and their beliefs must be taught as fact in a scientific setting even though none of it has anything to do with science.

Evolution, abiogenesis, and natural selection have more evidence and connecting reasoning and predictive conclusions than the THEORY OF GRAVITY, which so far we have not found a wave or particle that gravity comes from, we haven't correctly predicted the makeup of the universe because of this whole dark matter theory, we can't explain why matter has gravity, and we can't explain what happens inside black holes.

Yet, evolution has evidence spanning billions of years worth of rock, comprising millions and millions of species living and extinct, forming a logical path which can be traced through the fossil record, involves changes which can be observed on the microscopic and micro-evolutionary level, and can be observed indirectly through the fossil record on the macro-scopic and macro-evolutionary level, we know exactly how traits are passed from generation to another, we know how to decode DNA, we have mapped the genomes of many different species, and we can predict how closely related some species are and the genome matches that, and we have even used genetics to engineer countless plants and animals and even predict and detect disease.

This isn't some pie-in-the-sky Goddidit theory without any rational basis for existence short of its baffling popularity. This isn't something that someone with barely any knowledge of the subject and an intense desire NOT to read up on it or avoid making logical fallacies and spurious arguments every three seconds can just waltz in and single-handedly destroy without a second thought with as little investment and intellectual curiosity as possible while ignoring all rebuttals and forgetting that the thread is supposed to be about something separate and different entirely.

It's sort of like watching someone trying to run completely through a mile-thick slab of granite over and over again, and deciding that they've been successful in doing so even though they have not done so, and their reasoning that they've been successful is because if they say they've been successful enough times the spectators will be too busy laughing at them or too exhausted by the repetition that they won't bother to respond.

If necessary, I'll just post "you have not run through the mile of granite yet" and add "repeat ad infinitum" at the end for good measure, and have that apply to future posts made so I don't have to bother next time.

I realize discussing creationism in a scientific setting is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel to begin with, but if the creationist side isn't even willing to do a little light reading and respond to valid points, and just repeats the same tripe over and over, then it's more like spearing dead fish on your plate with a fork.

It's not a contest at that point, it's a prelude to a bowel movement.
 
Maybe we should give the creationists a break.
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A miracle, walking after 23 years is hard to disprove, spinal cords just do not fix themselves up and muscles atrophy with time, so a genuine miracle even if she does not walk perfectly.
A US singer paralysed from the waist-down after a car accident 23 years ago says she can now walk again after visiting a spiritual healer.

Evangelist gospel singer and paraplegic Delia Knox, 46, lost all feeling in her legs after a drunk driver struck the car she was in on Christmas Day 1987.

But Ms Knox said her life was turned "upside down" in August this year after visiting preacher Nathan Morris at a Christian revival at the Bay of the Holy Spirit Revival in Alabama.

"To be honest I’ve stayed away from healing meetings," Ms Knox said in a new interview with the Daily Mail newspaper.

"I've been pulled, plopped and dropped and rarely responded to altar calls."

"But Nathan Morris called my husband forward and I had no idea what was going on .... then all of a sudden I felt a voice which I knew was the Holy Spirit saying to me, 'Get up', and I felt feeling in my legs and then faith came on me to walk."

A video of the event on YouTube, which has now become a viral hit, shows the supposed "miracle" unfolding.

Ms Knox can be seen in the wheelchair before she lifts up and walks with some assistance around the auditorium. Audience members scream and clap while Ms Knox takes step after step.

Some skeptics have asked why Ms Knox was not able to get up and walk unassisted if she really was "healed".

Others have said that Ms Knox may have been able to walk but chose not to, while some have speculated that her legs would have been so affected by muscle atrophy she would have struggled to stand at all.

However, a second video taken a week later shows Ms Knox taking several steps unaided. She now says she "rarely" uses her wheelchair and is able to walk around her home without any assistance.

In an October interview with CNN, Ms Knox reportedly did not want to talk about what her doctor or physical therapist thought about the "miracle". She also wouldn't go into detail about the medical condition that caused her paralysis.

Attendance at the Bay of the Holy Spirit Revival is said to have jumped after Ms Knox's "miracle".
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8187827/paralysed-woman-walks-after-23-years
 
A miracle, walking after 23 years is hard to disprove, spinal cords just do not fix themselves up and muscles atrophy with time, so a genuine miracle even if she does not walk perfectly.

Where was her spine mentioned? And what does this have to do with creationism?
 
It could have been sympathetic paralysis, it could have been a Bender style scam to rob you of your money, it could have been a partial break in the spine, it could have been some other condition, it could have been psychosomatic. There is not enough information about the specific case to prove anything, but there is a lot of information to be able to say with confidence that the vast majority of this "faith healing" movement is charlatinism plain and simple, and that the tiny minority remaining is naive people misunderstanding placebo, you know, just like Homeopathy.
 
Where was her spine mentioned? And what does this have to do with creationism?

Dommy said he could show that miracle that has no scientific explanation and I've been demanding for it for like 1300 posts

@Trev, faith healers are laugh at even by the church and "miracles" are not reorganized by the churches. Every faith healing miracle that has been investigated has been proven to be fraud.
 
A miracle, walking after 23 years is hard to disprove, spinal cords just do not fix themselves up and muscles atrophy with time, so a genuine miracle even if she does not walk perfectly.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8187827/paralysed-woman-walks-after-23-years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_disorder

Paralysis can be caused by psychological factors, thus providing a plausible explanation of how the placebo effect could treat certain cases of paralysis.

Regardless, "alternative" medicine is an entirely different subject from YEC. Even if we suppose that some religious people have magic powers, that is not evidence proving the Omphalos hypothesis.
 
It's not psychological (except for the moral boost of being at the conference). Spinal sprouting is a well-known event after spinal cord injury. This woman is very lucky, and I am very happy for her. I normally associate this type of neurobiology with neuropathic pain being felt distal to the injury.

I hope she hadn't received some type of experimental surgery recently, because the scandal on that would be really sad for the faith community.
 
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