Faith and segregation

[Timsup2nothin]

its a bit off subject anyway, but your comment about a restaurant going belly up if it tried to covertly discourage customers based on race helps explain why the free market has anti-racist tendencies that Jim Crow sought to avoid by compelling segregation via legislation.

I agree that the free market has anti racist tendencies now. If California in the sixties and seventies had allowed all white restaurants there is no doubt in my mind I'd have reached adulthood without knowing for sure that black people eat. I think back then there were more than enough people like my dad to have kept them in business. Fortunately times have changed.

 

[jackelgull]

its a bit off subject anyway, but your comment about a restaurant going belly up if it tried to covertly discourage customers based on race helps explain why the free market has anti-racist tendencies that Jim Crow sought to avoid by compelling segregation via legislation.

The free market isn't inherently anything. Back in the Jim Crow era there were no forces propelling businesses towards anti segregation. They weren't losing money by keeping blacks out that they didn't gain in the increase of white patronage. In fact you could say for them it was a gain since whites had more money.

 

[BvBPL]

According to him, non gender segregated prayer would add an element of difficulty on concentrating on the actual act of prayer for both sexes, and that while yes, it is possible for men and women to overcome that difficulty with extra willpower, Allah would not want to make things needlessly harder for people discharging their duties.

Do I accept this premise? Not exactly, since I have no trouble distracting myself without the presence of female bottoms, but it is what is.

I once went to a Christmas midnight mass and watched the guy in front of me flirt with the woman next to him all night.

So I'd say your iman might not be totally inaccurate.

 

[Hygro]

its a bit off subject anyway, but your comment about a restaurant going belly up if it tried to covertly discourage customers based on race helps explain why the free market has anti-racist tendencies that Jim Crow sought to avoid by compelling segregation via legislation.

Why? Segregated restaurants sell a vibe that allows them a modicum of monopoly pricing (monopolistic competition). Peoples racist choices are rewarded by the market and in return most the businesses make more money.

 

[chijohnaok]

I do not believe that most church congregations in the US are "segregated", at least not on racial or ethnic lines.
Segregation involves a level of enforced separation.
(Others have already spoken to some of the churches that do separate worshipers based on gender).

Why do some church congregations tend to be predominantly white, predominantly black or even predominantly brown (Hispanic)?
I think someone in the thread earlier mentioned that congregations often are made up of people from the neighborhood around the church. And in many parts of the US neighborhoods may be made up of people of the same color or ethnic group.

Furthermore, some Christian churches in the US had a history of congregations based along ethnic lines. I grew up in Chicago. A hundred years ago you might have 3 Roman Catholic churches within 2-3 blocks of each other---you'd have a "Polish" church, a "German" church and a "Bohemian" church. In Chicago you had German Lutheran churches, Swedish Lutheran churches, Norwegian Lutheran churches, etc. Immigrants from Europe came and settled in neighborhoods and socialized with their neighbors and people that they were familiar with. You may still have that along some racial/ethnic lines but not to the extent that it existed 100 years ago. Today in Chicago you will find some Roman Catholic churches whose congregations are primarily Hispanic and who conduct their services in Spanish.

There are also some religions whose congregations are made up of predominantly the same ethnic group (Buddhists are predominantly Asian for example) but that (I believe) is more due to the fact that Buddhism originated originated in Asia.

Are there still Christian churches that are predominantly white, predominantly black, or predominantly Hispanic? Sure, but I don't think that it is anything that is enforced. It's not due to segregation.

As for

I would say it was prompted by the rising air of Christian bigotry being generated by the rampant rhetoric of the Republican presidential campaign.

ALL politicians appeal (or some may say pander) to their constituency groups.
You have some Democratic candidates that speak at churches, meet with church leaders, etc., just as you have some Republican candidates that do the same thing. That you may see more Republican candidates appealing to Christians is not surprising. It's constituency politics.

You also have 2 frontrunner Democratic candidates at the moment. You have what, close to a dozen Republicans still running.
That means there are going to be more occurrences of Republicans appealing to this constituency.

 

[BvBPL]

The Mormon church used to have specific racial concepts. Until 1978, the Mormons generally did not permit Blacks to become ordained.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Frankly, that seems a good thing. While I accept that there may be reasons within a faith for having such segregation, this woman's statements certainly bear investigation. I would expect that mosques more like the one Jackelgull attends will shine through and others that maintain a segregated orthodoxy that have been less diligent about maintaining reasonably equal facilities will have to catch up.

I am not a church goer and haven't attended a church service beyond a few weddings and funerals, for over 50 years. None-the-less...Churches are often/mostly cultural places and an Episcopalian church service will be far different than a black baptist one or a unitarian one. People often attend churches that fit their cultural selves as much as their "neighborhood" selves. Those cultural differences can be racial or ethnically biased causing segregation. If you are not comfortable singing and clapping with the choir, a baptist church may not be right for you and you will gravitate towards a more sedate Methodist congregation perhaps.

 

[Berzerker]

I agree that the free market has anti racist tendencies now. If California in the sixties and seventies had allowed all white restaurants there is no doubt in my mind I'd have reached adulthood without knowing for sure that black people eat. I think back then there were more than enough people like my dad to have kept them in business. Fortunately times have changed.

When did California ban all white diners (or did the feds do that for them?)? How many were there? I dont think a racist would last long in California given its ethnic diversity just serving fellow racists and people with no other option (I guess that'd be a monopoly).

The free market always has anti-racist tendencies, the only color that matters is green and that commonality brings people together - I'd think the most cosmopolitan cities from history got that way because of free(r) trade attracting people from all over. That or the slave trade

If another diner opens up in town the racist will eventually go out of business unless he can hire politicians or the KKK to drive the competition out. In spite of my gripes about the corporate system, it does promote integration.

Those northern jobs visiting southern states before heading out of the country are integrating the world. Thats partly why there's a conservative/traditionalist backlash against the west exporting its culture.

Using the very anti-free market extremism of the Jim Crow era to indict the free market seems illogical to me. People weren't allowed to discriminate, they had to, or face Johnny Law and the terrorism of the KKK (usually both I imagine).

The free market isn't inherently anything. Back in the Jim Crow era there were no forces propelling businesses towards anti segregation. They weren't losing money by keeping blacks out that they didn't gain in the increase of white patronage. In fact you could say for them it was a gain since whites had more money.

The forces propelling businesses toward anti-segregation were illegal with both the law and the KKK making sure people behaved. Segregated businesses served black people too, but they enjoyed a government backed monopoly enforced by terrorism. Nobody could open an integrated diner. And if they could legally, the KKK would still be there to terrorize the owner and customers while the politicians and law looked the other way because the criminals were good 'ol boys and sending them to jail would invite a visit from their buddies in white sheets.

Why? Segregated restaurants sell a vibe that allows them a modicum of monopoly pricing (monopolistic competition). Peoples racist choices are rewarded by the market and in return most the businesses make more money.

The market wasn't rewarding racist choices, segregated restaurants enjoyed a monopoly because they didn't have to compete with integrated businesses under Jim Crow. If both are allowed to compete without interference from government and its pseudo-militias like the KKK or any other criminal enterprise then the racist will lose.

 

[BvBPL]

The free market always has anti-racist tendencies, the only color that matters is green....

I got another color for you: red, as in redlining.

 

[Berzerker]

Oh yeah, free religion promotes integration even though it allows people to enjoy their exclusive clubs, cliques, or churches. I'm not sure the Prez should be criticizing his host's religious practice, seems disrespectful. If Muslim women dont like what the men are doing, they can join the silent women in Paul's church.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

When did California ban all white diners (or did the feds do that for them?)? How many were there? I dont think a racist would last long in California given its ethnic diversity just serving fellow racists and people with no other option (I guess that'd be a monopoly).

It never had them. That doesn't mean there weren't plenty of racists. You are also overestimating the ethnic diversity at the time under discussion.

 

[tetley]

However, I think a colored person might feel awkward going to a congregation where most of the people are white

White is a color.

 

[Berzerker]

I got another color for you: red, as in redlining.

The banking system was created by the government, but in a free market those with money can invest it as they see fit. They can even buy a basketball team and lose it when people find out the owner is a racist. The free market didn't create racism, but when its discovered it will try to punish it, peacefully.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The banking system was created by the government, but in a free market those with money can invest it as they see fit. They can even buy a basketball team and lose it when people find out the owner is a racist. The free market didn't create racism, but when its discovered it will try to punish it, peacefully.

Again, though I hate to be repetitive, your statement would be far more accurate if you add NOW at the end. Fifty years ago if a millionaire had been "revealed" as a racist the market would not have moved to punish him. There would have been an eyebrow raised here and there...maybe.

 

[Berzerker]

the people he was racist toward would have moved to punish him... and they have allies

 

[timtofly]

No matter what group you run into, you will soon discover if they are segregated or not. That is a social innate behavior that will never go away. I do not even think that society can evolve past it. Making laws and attempting to curb human behavior is a fine dream, but rarely will there be a government that can exist in one perpetual phase for very long. If humans were supposed to live in harmony, then right and wrong would not even exist. Humans create governments for the purpose of justice, but any form of power can be corrupted, and you are just forced back into having a segregated population just to keep the peace.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

the people he was racist toward would have moved to punish him... and they have allies

Just out of curiosity, were you alive at the time we are discussing?

 

[BvBPL]

The banking system was created by the government...

The banking system was created by the Knights Templar, not the government.

...but in a free market those with money can invest it as they see fit.

As in, say, opting not to lend to black communities.

It never had them.

Baloney.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Well Tim, our South Korean minister spends hours and hours every week sitting in the public areas of the village just being available. He organizes the only pre-school close enough to be loosely compatible with most daytime jobs. He organizes family nights and kid event days and none of these things require membership in the congregation. There aren't that many non-whites out in the middle of nowhere yet, people follow jobs and economic opportunity. The ones that are here simply don't come to our services. My wife's Nigerian priest is similarly welcoming to everybody. But their congregation tends to look exactly the same as mine unless he's got family visiting. Which is nice when he does.

Hey if we're throwing anecdotes around....

I'll see your 'open to the public' congregations and raise you a 'compel the public to join' congregation.

A while back my wife worked at the local Head Start. Head Start has lots and lots of parent-teacher days where the parents come in and learn how their kids are doing and what needs to be improved. The parking lot at Head Start on these days would become seriously overcrowded. There is a church next door and the Head Start staff asked if they could use their parking lot during parent-teacher days. It made sense as these events typically were not during church events so the parking lot was unused.

The church responded they would only allow the staff of Head Start and the impoverished parents of children at Head Start to use the parking lot if all of the staff at Head Start became members of their church and attended service - including the Muslim Head Start staff members.

But what your or my anecdotes has to do with the topic is beyond me.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Baloney.

I should not have said "never." It didn't have them anywhere near the time under discussion, so the answer to "when did it get rid of them?" should have been "sometime well before."

The point remains that claiming "oh free market forces will work against a segregationist business" may well be true now, at least in most places, but can't be used to support a claim that legal action against segregation wasn't necessary at the time.