Fall Further 0.51 Balance Discussion Thread

[Iceciro]

Yeah, for 120 gold you shouldn't get a unit that awesome.
It costs me almost that to upgrade units from Adepts to Necromancers.

 

[Tarquelne]

Yeah, for 120 gold you shouldn't get a unit that awesome.
It costs me almost that to upgrade units from Adepts to Necromancers.

I agree with that. (Though it might be cheaper for the Scions 'cuz they can offer an *awesome* medical plan.)

And/or add a per/turn limit to the # of mercs you can get. (Each starts with a 1 turn duration effect promo, and the pyreq for the Merc. "spell" counts those promos?)
They could be made to cost extra per/turn, too.

A cost increase, stat-reduction, or (I think) per/turn limit would be pretty easy to do.


Combine the above with WK's "Don't wanna fight" rules and we'd get decent representation of the classic "free company."

Realistically it is possible to get do-or-die mercs., but they tend to be not so much expensive as unskilled. But such units might be more accuratly represented by the draft/buy-hammers rules. Anyway... we *could* have a two-tiered system, where the initially purchaced merc. is realtively cheap and can be used unrestricted. For extra money (a for-gold promo) you get a better unit, but with WK's restrictions.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

mercenaries cost a more reasonable 180 gold in base ffh

 

[Iceciro]

They may be 180 here too, I wrote that from memory. Still, too cheap for the unit you get with iron/mithril.

 

[rocklikeafool]

They may be 180 here too, I wrote that from memory. Still, too cheap for the unit you get with iron/mithril.

They are 180. And maybe you should just increase the cost of mercs with iron or mithril. 210 for iron? 250 for mithril? Something like that. Also, I would like to see mercs have more depth, but not too much more. I don't want mercs to distract from the rest of it. This is FF, not "Mercenaries", after all.

 

[WarKirby]

An ideal longterm solution I think, would be to do mercenary recruitment similar to how it's done in Medieval: Total War. ie, each "area" of the map (each city in our case) has a specific list of available mercenaries of all different types, depending on the region, population of said region, etc.

In civ terms, we'd need a properly seperate menu, and code to generate a list of mercenaries available, based on the techs and resources in the area. In the case of a just captured city, you'd only be able to hire things according to the tech level of the previous owners. Their artstyle would be dependant on prevalent culture of the region, too.

There would be a specific list of mercenaries. like x number of melee units, x mounted, x archers, etc. With x being dependant on the population of the city. And possible additional factors like the presence of inns, taverns, et al. The mercenary list would regenerate over time, not instantly. Say at one point, you come along and there are 14 mercenary units available. You could hire them all right there, but it might be 10-20 turns before there are any more at that city.

This would take lots of dll work though. Probably not possible with python, although perhapd. The main issue I'd see is tracking already purchased mercenaries. It would certainly be possible for python to generate an available list of mercs a tany given point, but how to remember that 10 melee units were hired last turn so there shouldn't be any left this turn. Is there any method for this kind of data persistance?

 

[far_wanderer]

Or you could just put a 1-2 turn casting delay on Hire Mercenary. It slows down the steamroll, and means that if you do it on the frontlines somebody can come in and pick off some of the casting units with assassins before they finish, putting you out a bunch of gold.

 

[Randomness]

Or you could steal the code from the Broken Star (I think that's what it is called) scenario for BTS. I haven't really played it, but it is supposed to have a very goood mecernarie system (units even come with promos) though I may be wrong...

 

[Tarquelne]

Or you could just put a 1-2 turn casting delay on Hire Mercenary.

Another easy - but significant - change.

***

I wouldn't mind if mercenaries were handled entierly via the Event system, with the Guild of Nine giving regular Events. Which reminds me of this: westamastaflash's Expanded Mercenaries.

 

[Exsequien]

An ideal longterm solution I think, would be to do mercenary recruitment similar to how it's done in Medieval: Total War. ie, each "area" of the map (each city in our case) has a specific list of available mercenaries of all different types, depending on the region, population of said region, etc.

In civ terms, we'd need a properly seperate menu, and code to generate a list of mercenaries available, based on the techs and resources in the area. In the case of a just captured city, you'd only be able to hire things according to the tech level of the previous owners. Their artstyle would be dependant on prevalent culture of the region, too.

There would be a specific list of mercenaries. like x number of melee units, x mounted, x archers, etc. With x being dependant on the population of the city. And possible additional factors like the presence of inns, taverns, et al. The mercenary list would regenerate over time, not instantly. Say at one point, you come along and there are 14 mercenary units available. You could hire them all right there, but it might be 10-20 turns before there are any more at that city.

This would take lots of dll work though. Probably not possible with python, although perhapd. The main issue I'd see is tracking already purchased mercenaries. It would certainly be possible for python to generate an available list of mercs a tany given point, but how to remember that 10 melee units were hired last turn so there shouldn't be any left this turn. Is there any method for this kind of data persistance?

This sounds like the best way.

You could have Jungle fighters in well, jungle areas. Pirates in coast areas. Barbarians in snowy areas and maybe even some undead mercenaries in hell/wasteland terrain.

 

[Kjara]

Python might be able to handle it if it merely kept track of in arrays whats avail(and removed that when it was bought). Then you could slowly(probabilistically) add to the arrays units with promotions each turn based on features/terrain around a city+city size/buildings/[techs of the owner](and have some chance of removing existing ones/have some max on the number based on city size perhaps?--the ideal would be a soft cap based on birth rate and death rate though imo) while using the removal of bought ones to simulate depopulation of the market after mercs are hired.

 

[Iceciro]

Is there any way to push Lizardmen back? Even to just say, turn 50ish? They're not usually a problem but their two move speed and four strength means they have a decent chance to end an empire.

Nothing like losing a worker to a unit that came in from a forest two tiles out of your culture.

EDIT: As an FYI, we've lost three games because one of the four players was eliminated pre-turn-50 by Lizardmen attacking the capital and killing 1,2 warriors. In my case I lost because a lizardman attacked and killed my warrior defending my worker (eating my worker) and then killed the two warriors I sent at it, all in a single turn, and still had 1.3hp left. Which it used to win.

 

[WarKirby]

Sending warriors at it was probably a bad idea. You should defend in the city.

Remember, recon units can't pillage, and barbarians like to launch suicide attacks. So you can usually sit behind your palisade and win on the defense. Warriors have +25% city defense, pon top of what your city's defense bonus gives. And lizardmen have a 20% city attack penalty. These things combine to mostly cancel their extra strength point.

 

[Iceciro]

Except on several occasions it's still ended up with a lost empire. Not a big deal SP, you just reboot the game, wait through the loading, and go. But with a MP game nobody wants to see a friend drop in the first 20 turns - so we all reboot... >_< If it was occasional it wouldn't have bothered me so much, but three times in four games...

 

[stupidnewbie]

Is there a reason lizard civs don't spawn jungles on hill tiles? Just wondering...

 

[Breez]

I liked the look of the "Expanded Mercenaries" mentioned above. Very neat.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I wouldn't mind if mercenaries were handled entierly via the Event system, with the Guild of Nine giving regular Events. Which reminds me of this: westamastaflash's Expanded Mercenaries.

You know, in all honesty, I liked it best through the event system myself. I mean it makes it more interesting. Events have a %chance attached to them as to whether they happen or not. I like the fact that some games, I may get a few Ogres. While in other games, I may get some Dwarves. And, of course, other games I get nothing. Variety. I like the variety. It's something random I didn't plan for and it makes it interesting. But if I can hire any mercenaries I want...I lose that. I dislike that.

Anyway, I suggest you just add westamastaflash's Expanded Mercenaries. to the mod and please leave it at that. Anything else loses the random chance factor. A major thing I like about this mod is the random chance factor.

 

[Valkrionn]

I've got to agree. The ONLY issue I have with it, and the main reason I haven't added it to FFPlus, is the fact that if you don't like your choices you can close the menu, open it again, and have new choices...

Need to figure out how to save a variable in python, so you can set the mercs at the start of a turn... Maybe even save them from the start, have buying them clear the variable, and each turn only set a new unit for those you've bought already.

 

[odalrick]

Need to figure out how to save a variable in python, so you can set the mercs at the start of a turn... Maybe even save them from the start, have buying them clear the variable, and each turn only set a new unit for those you've bought already.

If you're willing to put up with some artefacts with saving and loading, it's trivial. Just use a global variable.

The problem is persistence across sessions, but you're only talking about across turns.

 

[Valkrionn]

I assume by artifacts that you mean they won't be saved through a reload? Can deal with that.

I've heard it's simple, I just haven't actually had a reason to do it yet. I think doing it in the DLL would be better long run, but the python is easier to adapt short term.. I'll stick to it for now.