Fall Further 050 Bug Report Thread

[Vehem]

The citizen spawning was working fine in the version that AC uploaded the other day, though. This behaviour is different. I'd suggest looking inward for the source of the problem. Perhaps you did something to the python that broke it?

WinMerge shows the onCityDoTurn() from the release and the version of the Jotnar that was posted (think it was by Valk) to be identical. Mechanic is as follows.

AC is less than 10: 3% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 10->50: 2% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 50->75: 1.5% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 75->100: 1% chance per city to spawn, (3 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 100: 0.5% chance per city to spawn, (4 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max

===

What you reported about capturing additional cities is accurate. You do need more cities to get more citizens. I think you may be supposed to upgrade the citizens as soon as is feasible rather than keep them around, as once you hit your limit you won't gain anymore for a while.

I'm also not sure why the number you can have "in reserve" increases with the Armageddon Counter. As I said - need AC to comment on this one as to what the behaviour *should* be.

 

[MaJa]

playing jotnar on patch K
after declaring nationality with a hill giant they can still be attacked by anyone you're not at war with.

 

[Valkrionn]

WinMerge shows the onCityDoTurn() from the release and the version of the Jotnar that was posted (think it was by Valk) to be identical. Mechanic is as follows.

AC is less than 10: 3% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 10->50: 2% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 50->75: 1.5% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 75->100: 1% chance per city to spawn, (3 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 100: 0.5% chance per city to spawn, (4 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max

Note that in the current implementation, you actually have to have *less* than the "max" to be able to create a citizen (so if you have 1 city, you'd have a max of 2 (2*1), but would only get 1 at most. That's a bug in my opinion, but there's a chance that it may be what he intended.

===

What you reported about capturing additional cities is accurate. You do need more cities to get more citizens. I think you may be supposed to upgrade the citizens as soon as is feasible rather than keep them around, as once you hit your limit you won't gain anymore for a while.

I'm also not sure why the number you can have "in reserve" increases with the Armageddon Counter. As I said - need AC to comment on this one as to what the behaviour *should* be.

From what I remember, the more cities you have the faster they are supposed to spawn. Can make for a few slow starts, so I settle 3 or 4 cities as soon as possible... Usually already in my borders.

Also, he had said before that he wanted the birthrate to decrease with the AC, but in return allow you more children... So I think that's working as intended.

 

[xienwolf]

You can't combine combat and worker animations. There is a finite list of animation slots available for units, and depending on what type of unit it is you can tell which animation belongs in each slot. For this same reason you can't have an animation for doing a recon mission combined with an animation for fighting (ie - to allow Dragons or Angels to use their wings for recon). Also the same issue which causes some of the units who can fight and create great works/buildings to not have a "I am doing a great work!" animation.

For the research, the limitation of needing to have the prereqs is only there for choose what to research. If you are already working on something and then lose the prereqs, you are allowed to continue (until the point you change what you are working on)

Also, please avoid re-posting quite so quickly In general if you were the last one to post, you should just edit your previous post with the new information, unless it was a considerable time earlier that you had previously posted.

While with 3 cities you should have a 9% chance per turn to gain a citizen, it is completely possible to have a strain of 300 turns or more without gaining anything. The joys of RNG.

 

[WarKirby]

Was it seriously just bad luck that I didn't get a citizen for 97 turns?
Perhaps these sorts of things need constraints. So that if too long passes without an occurrence, spawn is forced.

Oh, I just thought of a simpler solution to this bug

Perhaps jst making items dropped by dead civs, be barbarian. That would solve the issue in a simple manner, I'd say. Not as cool as making a civ's remnants turn barbarian though.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yep, pure luck. My first game, I was getting spawns pretty regularly... Second game, didn't get one until turn 120. Then they flooded in.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

At least its not like the scions where you need the spawns for founding cities. ANyway, i have a bug to report. I got a compelling jewel result from a lair, and the hunter i used had the promo and there was also the unit on teh ground. I happily steered my nearet hunter to it and got the duplicate item, but this of course is a bug. I dont have the save unfortunately becasue it didnt occur to me to post this until i had picked up the duplicate a good 10 turns later.
UPDATE: Wow. Didnt FFH kill the chance of units above level 1 getting killed in a lair? It really sucks when you have two super elite troll HUnters and one gets lost ina dungeon...
UPDATE2: THis bug did not happen with the Jade Torc.
UPDATE3: Hill giants cant use weapons???
UPDATE4: Went to war with the bannor... some peculiar comabt odds... Ive attached the save. Try attacking the axeman on te left. I'll post a screenie if someone tells me how to take it.

 

[Arctic Circle]

WinMerge shows the onCityDoTurn() from the release and the version of the Jotnar that was posted (think it was by Valk) to be identical. Mechanic is as follows.

AC is less than 10: 3% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 10->50: 2% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 50->75: 1.5% chance per city to spawn, (2 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 75->100: 1% chance per city to spawn, (3 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max
AC is 100: 0.5% chance per city to spawn, (4 x number of cities) Jotnar Citizen max

Note that in the current implementation, you actually have to have *less* than the "max" to be able to create a citizen (so if you have 1 city, you'd have a max of 2 (2*1), but would only get 1 at most. That's a bug in my opinion, but there's a chance that it may be what he intended.

===

What you reported about capturing additional cities is accurate. You do need more cities to get more citizens. I think you may be supposed to upgrade the citizens as soon as is feasible rather than keep them around, as once you hit your limit you won't gain anymore for a while.

I'm also not sure why the number you can have "in reserve" increases with the Armageddon Counter. As I said - need AC to comment on this one as to what the behaviour *should* be.

You are supposed to be able to have only a certain maximum numbers of Jotnar Citizens roughly equal to the number of cities you have * 2.

I had a very good reason why it increases (the max) with armageddon counter, but can't recall it right now even to save my life. I discussed this with my wife, whom can't remember either.

Was it seriously just bad luck that I didn't get a citizen for 97 turns?
Perhaps these sorts of things need constraints. So that if too long passes without an occurrence, spawn is forced.

I was tinkering with something like that, but didn't get around to it. It was hard to make a good mechanism. If you run off and get your citizens/jotnar units killed, at turn 70 - it will look the same as if you never got any. I don't want to reward suicidal behavior.

 

[WarKirby]

The hill giants created from the Pact of the Nilhorn, don't start with Giantkin. Which means annoyingly, that they can't cross mountains with the rest of my troops.

Needless to say, I intend to correct that with worldbuilder for now.

 

[Dragonlord]

The Jotnar are unable to adopt ANY civic, rather than just change Government civics, and Jotnar Workers are unable to take the Aptitude promotions.

Edit: The Mouth of the Divine doesn't seem to be able to spread religions, either.

I was going to post these as well - annoying! No way to spread religion, can't use any civics, workers gaining XP but can't do anything with them..

Otherwise, the Jotnar are lots of fun... but, unfortunately, in my first game with them I get a recurring CTD on the AI's turn, here's a savegame.

*sigh* Why always in my games? .... Goes off to start a new game... again...

Edit: OOOPS!!!! This was still patch K - I hadn't noticed the new patch L yet!
Apologies for wasting your time..

 

[WarKirby]

Ok, I'm now using patch L. I'm seeing an oddity that was there in the last patch too, but I never got around to mentioning it.

Playing as Jotnar, some of my cities seem to have more population than they actually do, if that makes sense. A city I just constructed that's still at size 1, can work two tiles (in addition to the base square itself).

Quite often, when a city reaches size 8, it can work all of it's tiles AND have a specialist. It seems to be a +1 error somewhere, I don't think it's intended. My capital doesn't have it.

Edit:

And on the flipside, probably related, neither the food nor commerce output of the base square, is being counted. The is though.

 

[WarKirby]

Oh dear, it seems that the giant age promotions are a bit messed up at different gamespeeds.

Playing a jotnar game on quick atm. It seems that the age requirements are scaled to speed, so I only need aunit of age 67 for the second level.

But the unit age itself, is also scaled. This double positive is making my giants horrendously powerful very quickly.

 

[Milaga]

Patch L

* Egrass can build roads over peaks. Is this intended?
* Jotnar workers gain xp like workers but cannot take any worker promotions. And as mentioned neither do they gain automatic giant promotions.
* Wild Trolls that turned barbarian seem to vanish after a turn if they turn barb while in the same square as other units.

Also, I'm getting a CTD instantly upon ending turn. I've got a new random seed on reload and I've tried reloading several times but it's also an instant CTD as soon as I hit enter.

And a comment on the birth mechanic. It can be extremely frustrating.In my previous game I went 100 turns without getting a birth. Then my hunter turned barb the turn after I made him. So I only had a few cities, was completely boxed in on 3 sides by other civs and had no military to speak of. While it might not be in the flavor, perhaps a rubber-band mechanic might help. When your score is relatively lower you get a % bump, adjusted for difficulty. And perhaps this is only in the first X turns of the game.

 

[Valkrionn]

Patch L

* Egrass can build roads over peaks. Is this intended?
* Jotnar workers gain xp like workers but cannot take any worker promotions. And as mentioned neither do they gain automatic giant promotions.
* Wild Trolls that turned barbarian seem to vanish after a turn if they turn barb while in the same square as other units.

Also, I'm getting a CTD instantly upon ending turn. I've got a new random seed on reload and I've tried reloading several times but it's also an instant CTD as soon as I hit enter.

And a comment on the birth mechanic. It can be extremely frustrating.In my previous game I went 100 turns without getting a birth. Then my hunter turned barb the turn after I made him. So I only had a few cities, was completely boxed in on 3 sides by other civs and had no military to speak of. While it might not be in the flavor, perhaps a rubber-band mechanic might help. When your score is relatively lower you get a % bump, adjusted for difficulty. And perhaps this is only in the first X turns of the game.

1. All giant workers can do this, a side effect of being able to move through impassable terrain.
2. I've mentioned the same several times. Wouldn't bother me if intended, though.
3. Did you happen to have the Wall of the Covenant? It would kick barbs out of your terrain.

 

[Lemminkäinen]

I stood on a peak next to a Bannor city with a HN Wild Troll. I killed all the defenders in the city (quite slowly, I might add ), but couldn't conquer it with a HN unit (as normal). Then a barbarian goblin conquered the city and its size shot up to eight (from two) and a staedding was built in it (or the graphic at least).

 

[xienwolf]

Oh dear, it seems that the giant age promotions are a bit messed up at different gamespeeds.

Playing a jotnar game on quick atm. It seems that the age requirements are scaled to speed, so I only need aunit of age 67 for the second level.

But the unit age itself, is also scaled. This double positive is making my giants horrendously powerful very quickly.

It should just be an error in the display for the MinAge prereq, it shows 67 as requirement, but 100 will actually be enforced (let me know if it isn't). I've fixed the text display for next patch.

 

[KingArthur666]

Patch L playing Jotnar I built the Wall of the Covenant in my capitol and now none of my cites are able to earn great person points of any kind.

Edit: Nevermind. Just noticed someone cast a world spell halting all production. Stupid world spell... *grumble, grumble*

 

[Milaga]

2. I've mentioned the same several times. Wouldn't bother me if intended, though.
3. Did you happen to have the Wall of the Covenant? It would kick barbs out of your terrain.

2. The giant workers are the toughest units you can build. You are right, they probably shouldn't get any promotions at all.
3. I was playing the evil giants both times it happened, and I didn't have the wall built.

For my second game of patch L I decided to ditch the Jotnar since all my games have ended in CTDs I couldn't get around. I loaded up the Malakim+ for patch L. I know it's a MODMODMOD so this might not be the appropriate place, but I played an Large Emperor game and all of the Civs were stagnating. It's almost turn 200 and apart from Samhain (which Auric always builds first thing) no other Civ has founded a religion or built a wonder. All the civs seem to be using "dowsing" a lot. Some turns I get 4 or 5 messages about dowsing. Not only that, but I've got borders near the coast and not a single Civ has made contact with me by boat exploration. In a 10 civ game I have only met 3 others.

I conquered Auric at about turn 170. All he had defending his cities were scouts and warriors. Once I started trashing his towns he was building bronze axemen. Turns out he had a ton of sword spiders in his territory and by that turn they were all S7+1 with at least Combat3. This was keeping him from improving his lands. Probably 3/4 of his workable plots were unimproved. I'm sure he used all his hammers to get his workers killed and throw wimpy axemen against it. Then I moved on to the Calabim. Same deal.

The spiders have always been a pain if you don't take care of them early, but they really seem to be more than the AI can handle at Emperor level.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... My only though about the trolls would have to be that since you were on friendly terms with the barbs, they left.

I've noticed the same thing with Dowsing. I keep getting a popup that Daracaat has completed dowsing in my current game... He's not expanding at all.

 

[xienwolf]

I would suspect it is Malakim+ which is responsible for Dowsing. If they added any resources which only Malakim can see (I am pretty sure they added Camels, don't know if it is Malakim only though) that would put the AI in a Dowsing Frenzy. Fall Further avoids this by making sure that all resources which are hidden also require the hidding tech to connect them to the city.

Basically, the AI will know if there is something it cannot see, but CAN connect, and value the trade potential, so spams dowsing.