Fall Further Plus

Alright I know the scoring system in FF is a little crazy, but consider this:

I have a slight lead as D'Tesh over the Archos. However, in one turn the Archos went from 826 pts to 1,065 pts leaving me in the dust. The Archos do have a large empire, but more than 200 pts. I realize pts are not a big deal in the game, but what could happen to give a civ 200 pts in mid-game (Turn 500/epic)?

Also, how does FF+ calculate strength for animals you capture? I captured a Mammoth at strength 13 and converted it into a Mammoth Rider. It got 10 strength and 1 Death. In FF if you capture a strength 13 Elephant and convert it into a War Elephant it will get 12 strength. I noticed differences on other animals in FF+ too.

Finally, do the d'Tesh have a Medic/Cure Disease unit? I just researched Medicine and have not found one. I know they are Undead, but they take damage too and need healing. Also, you might have other living units playing that civ. Disease has not been a problem in this game.
 
Valkrionn said:
Somehow, I don't think any color but black would fit, personally. I do need to change the border colors at least though... Right now it looks like a barb faction.
Click to expand...

Yes, anything to distinguish it. It is particularly confusing when you are fighting barbs.

Also, I mentioned a starting civic of the d'Tesh as Religion. I don't think that makes sense for an Agnostic trait civ.

Nationhood maybe is better?
 
Sarisin said:
Alright I know the scoring system in FF is a little crazy, but consider this:

I have a slight lead as D'Tesh over the Archos. However, in one turn the Archos went from 826 pts to 1,065 pts leaving me in the dust. The Archos do have a large empire, but more than 200 pts. I realize pts are not a big deal in the game, but what could happen to give a civ 200 pts in mid-game (Turn 500/epic)?

Also, how does FF+ calculate strength for animals you capture? I captured a Mammoth at strength 13 and converted it into a Mammoth Rider. It got 10 strength and 1 Death. In FF if you capture a strength 13 Elephant and convert it into a War Elephant it will get 12 strength. I noticed differences on other animals in FF+ too.

Finally, do the d'Tesh have a Medic/Cure Disease unit? I just researched Medicine and have not found one. I know they are Undead, but they take damage too and need healing. Also, you might have other living units playing that civ. Disease has not been a problem in this game.
Click to expand...

I haven't touched score at all, so I'd say they probably got a fortunate event.

I have not changed animal capturing either, although there's a possibility that the extra strength doesn't work correctly for the new animals. It's something I'll look into.

As far as I'm aware, they do not. Mailbox made them though, I just pulled them in... Same with the Mechanos, although those are Ahwaric's creation, and I did have to modify them quite a bit.

Sarisin said:
Yes, anything to distinguish it. It is particularly confusing when you are fighting barbs.

Also, I mentioned a starting civic of the d'Tesh as Religion. I don't think that makes sense for an Agnostic trait civ.

Nationhood maybe is better?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I saw that... Thanks for reminding me, I'll change it now. Working on a minor project, and then I'm back on this. :lol:
 
You realize how important a unit with medic/cure disease is until you play a civ without such a unit available. The Kahdi are another example.

Running your units back to cities or the Pool of Tears just doesn't cut it.

Thanks for your replies and clarification.

Excellent job on this, V.:goodjob:

I've played Mechanos in Orbis and they are OK, but I am always looking to try new civs like the d'Tesh. They are OK too, but just don't fit my normal style of play. Still, I appreciate the work of Mailbox in creating this civ and your including of it in FF+.
 
The thing with Mammoths is because when they become Mammoth Riders, they become mounted units, and thus pick up Wretched. That's the promotion that makes all D'Tesh mounted and melee units capture slaves and not gain combat experience. It gives them -2 strength and +1 death affinity.

EDIT: Regarding undead and disease, a thought just came to me. Valkrionn, what would you think about making Undead immune to the negative effects of disease and plague? It would be fairly easy, just make an auto-acquire promotion with the opposite effects. Diseased Corpses should probably lose 1 strength if you use that idea. It makes little sense for undead to be crippled by disease (unless it's actually bad enough to be eating way a significant amount of body mass), but they also shouldn't be immune to carrying it.
 
That's why the strength was low... Thank you! I honestly don't use mounted with the D'tesh, so I didn't know about that. :lol: Need to remember to allow Watchers to build a pasture on Horses.... Or better yet, a unique improvement that converts the horses to Nightmares?

EDIT: Regarding undead and disease, a thought just came to me. Valkrionn, what would you think about making Undead immune to the negative effects of disease and plague? It would be fairly easy, just make an auto-acquire promotion with the opposite effects. Diseased Corpses should probably lose 1 strength if you use that idea. It makes little sense for undead to be crippled by disease (unless it's actually bad enough to be eating way a significant amount of body mass), but they also shouldn't be immune to carrying it.
Click to expand...

I like it, actually... If I do it via an autoacquire promo like you suggest, I'd likely just block diseased corpses from gaining it rather than reducing their strength. I think the Scions would be an exception, as well... They're a different kind of undead, and this would help show that. Disease may not affect them much, but they wouldn't like it.
 
Valkrionn said:
That's why the strength was low... Thank you! I honestly don't use mounted with the D'tesh, so I didn't know about that. :lol: Need to remember to allow Watchers to build a pasture on Horses.... Or better yet, a unique improvement that converts the horses to Nightmares?

I like it, actually... If I do it via an autoacquire promo like you suggest, I'd likely just block diseased corpses from gaining it rather than reducing their strength. I think the Scions would be an exception, as well... They're a different kind of undead, and this would help show that. Disease may not affect them much, but they wouldn't like it.
Click to expand...

I mentioned a few posts back that my Watchers were unable to build a pasture on the Horse resource, but Slaves were. Regardless, if I ever play the d'Tesh again I will likely ignore the melee/mounted lines and go heavy on the recon line. I'm fortunate in this game in that I beat the Archos to the Baron and I have Werewolves as a support army.

Honestly, I think the medic/healing issue is more important that disease. As I mentioned, in this game disease has not been an issue. However, with some of the ungodly healing rates, you really need a unit with that Medic promotion to keep an advancing army moving.
 
far_wanderer said:
The thing with Mammoths is because when they become Mammoth Riders, they become mounted units, and thus pick up Wretched. That's the promotion that makes all D'Tesh mounted and melee units capture slaves and not gain combat experience. It gives them -2 strength and +1 death affinity.

.
Click to expand...

OK, I didn't notice that the Mammoth Riders had that promotion. The two I have haven't taken any Slaves in a total of 10 or so combats, but with a 15% rate that doesn't mean much.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
Valkrionn said:
I like it, actually... If I do it via an autoacquire promo like you suggest, I'd likely just block diseased corpses from gaining it rather than reducing their strength. I think the Scions would be an exception, as well... They're a different kind of undead, and this would help show that. Disease may not affect them much, but they wouldn't like it.
Click to expand...

The Scions were actually the ones I had in mind with this idea :). There's an event about a plague that specifically gives the Scions an option for a culture boost instead of negative effects, with a description that goes something like "Our immunity to contagions further proves that we are superior".
 
Sarisin said:
I mentioned a few posts back that my Watchers were unable to build a pasture on the Horse resource, but Slaves were. Regardless, if I ever play the d'Tesh again I will likely ignore the melee/mounted lines and go heavy on the recon line. I'm fortunate in this game in that I beat the Archos to the Baron and I have Werewolves as a support army.

Honestly, I think the medic/healing issue is more important that disease. As I mentioned, in this game disease has not been an issue. However, with some of the ungodly healing rates, you really need a unit with that Medic promotion to keep an advancing army moving.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had seen that... It's an old bug, I just keep forgetting the damn thing. :lol:

far_wanderer said:
The Scions were actually the ones I had in mind with this idea :). There's an event about a plague that specifically gives the Scions an option for a culture boost instead of negative effects, with a description that goes something like "Our immunity to contagions further proves that we are superior".
Click to expand...

Good point... I just don't know about giving them complete immunity. If I did that, it would just be rolled into the 'Undead' promotion.
 
Woops, found a rather major bug... Basically destroys the effect promotions, at least in the pedia. Don't know about in game. :eek: In the new Ice Stealth promotion, which is for Doviello and Illian workers in snow (Invixible, increased workrate), I put in CIVILIZATION_ILLIAN rather than CIVILIZATION_ILLIANS. I'll put out a small patch soon, once I'm done with some other small tweaks.
 
Here's a teaser of the new D'teshi flag/border color. The gray borders are from a barb city... still a bit close, but it's as good as I can get it without moving it from black, which I won't do. As it is, the edges are very distinct. The flag icon is from Orbis. I believe it's also the icon used to show peace with demons.

Edit: Looking for a new leader pic for D'tesh, as he's using one from a minor Infernal leader.
 
Thanks for pulling this altogether... I really like the new flavor for this mod, as it really adds some depth. Nice job! Keep up the great work!
 
Valkrionn said:
Here's a teaser of the new D'teshi flag/border color. The gray borders are from a barb city... still a bit close, but it's as good as I can get it without moving it from black, which I won't do. As it is, the edges are very distinct. The flag icon is from Orbis. I believe it's also the icon used to show peace with demons.

Edit: Looking for a new leader pic for D'tesh, as he's using one from a minor Infernal leader.
Click to expand...

I'd like to point out that a skull is FAR more suitable for Dtesh, than Agares.
And the Demon face you're using there is FAR more suitable for Agares, than Dtesh.

Swap them!
 
I like the first pic
 
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