Fascists Riot in Virginia

[Hrothbern]

The Political Compass positions political choices in two dimensions: horizontally the Left-Right and vertically Libertarian-Authoritarian. https://www.politicalcompass.org/

They have on their site the positions of the political parties of the most recent elections for some countries, and you can fill out a list of questions to get your own position.
I did the test and ended up not too far away where I would position myself on the ideological overview.
Main issue I have with the Compass is that it is imo too anglo-spheric and I would like to see added some elections of European countries with (still) a strong Social Democratic party in a multi party system.
If those countries also end up to far Right and Authoritarian, that would confirm that the Compass does indeed not understand the nuances of the classic political Left and Centre.


But it is imo an interesting and reasonable good way to show political positions

That's just the American misuse of the term which I, for one, refuse to indulge.
Liberalism spans soft left to soft right but is mostly defined by being obsessed with the individual and blind to the structural and by being fence-sitting, order-obsessed cowards. In the US right now they're the people going "this isn't us!" and similar.

Agree
Liberalism started in the 18th century, based on the enlightnment, important in the French Revolution, the US constitution and was aimed at the liberation of the citizens from the ruling divine right monarchies in Europe.
Liberalism started with intellectuals mostly being rich or middle class and this caused it to be more of a Right wing when the Left-Right distinction evolved because of the Socialist movements developing as reaction on the industrial revolution, although it is in principle indifferent to Left-Right.

Here the Compass positions of the 2013 and FC 2017 elections of Germany showing the position of the liberal FDP.

For the non-Germans: CSU & CDU are together the Christian-Democratic party of Merkel, the SPD the Social Democrats, Die Linke the Socialists, the FDP the Liberals, Die Grünen the Greenn party, the AfD the populist extreme right.

You can look on the site yourself the party positions of other countries listed.
Interesting is to compare Labour between 2010 and 2017, moving from the Blairish position in the Right, to the Corbyn position again in the Left.

 

[Ryika]

Eh, positions on social matters really have very little to do with left vs right. Plenty of people who hate foreigners want to nationalise stuff, and the corporate world is nearly unanimous in plastering rainbows over everything in support of same sex marriage.

It certainly doesn't make much sense to call a group like the FDP "left wing" in any meaningful sense of the world. Those sorts of implicitly to explicitly pro-capitalist socially laissez-faire types are made for the term "liberal" rather than "leftist".

No, it doesn't make sense to call the FDP "left wing", because they don't buy into social liberalism (the idea that the individual should have as much freedom as he or she can, and that social justice is required to create those freedoms) or versions of the "classical liberal" that would fall into the left sphere, they instead buy into economic liberalism (the idea that the market should be largely unregulated, and led by the individuals within the market, not by outside forces).

Also note that we seem to be using the words differently here, you're using it in a purely economical sense, which is one way of looking at it, but doesn't really make sense in this case, given that we were talking about people taking positions on social issues, not economic ones.

 

[Arwon]

At any rate, my point was liberals are fence-sitting structure-blind cowards.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Only fools think the FDP is really a liberal party in the modern sense.
They may sometimes pay lip service to civil rights when and personal freedom when it suits them, but their top priority is an economic right-wing agenda. Everyting else is negotiable. They're just housebroken right-wing libertarians.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Any chance of their partner that has STD overtaking?

And which party is serial-killer ex- eu parliament president leading? SPD or FDP?

 

[Traitorfish]

Sounds very much like certain far-left groups to me.

I understand your burning need to bring up horsehoes in every conversation you have, but when you're talking about an event at which the Nazis actually started killed people, this seems, just, stunningly tone-deaf.

 

[Borachio]

Late Friday night, several hundred torch-bearing men and women marched on the main quadrangle of the University of Virginia’s grounds, shouting, “You will not replace us,” and “Jew will not replace us.”

.

:sigh:

And why is it no-one likes Jewish people again?

I seem to have forgotten.

Is it their habit of winning Nobel prizes?

 

[Cutlass]

:sigh:

And why is it no-one likes Jewish people again?

I seem to have forgotten.

Is it their habit of winning Nobel prizes?

Honestly, it's not something I ever really understood. Maybe it's as simple as them being the 'outsiders'. They are just a bit recognizably different, and to narrow minded tribalists that's enough to set them apart and make them 'not of us', And to those narrow minded tribalists, when things are not going as 'we' want them to, it must be 'their' fault. So scapegoats. But in this case scapegoats with 2000 years of tradition behind it, and so it seeming naturally justified.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

How dare you call them Fascist?! If you are after democracy, you should help them with money, so that they could build a long-standing camp with a trebuchet!

 

[wabatt]

I have no sympathy for anyone who got hurt yesterday. Both sides brought weapons and were looking to brawl in the streets. Of course someone is going to get hurt.

Moderator Action: Please don't broadcast your apathy over protesters getting injured and killed. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Broken_Erika]

I must say i like the idea of giving Neo-Nazi's free trebuchet rides.

Moderator Action: While I realize this is (probably) a joke, this thread isn't the best venue for supporting one's death or critical injury even for a laugh. Tensions are sensitive right now and it's best to avoid any form of rhetoric that implies contentment with death or injury (on either side). - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kyriakos]

How dare you call them Fascist?! If you are after democracy, you should help them with money, so that they could build a long-standing camp with a trebuchet!

Orange revolution

 

[Ryika]

I understand your burning need to bring up horsehoes in every conversation you have, but when you're talking about an event at which the Nazis actually started killed people, this seems, just, stunningly tone-deaf.

The Nazis did not "start killing people", one person who, as far as I know, was not even affiliated with the protest, used a car to kill people, while everybody else held protests and then started going at each other, like they did on several other events, most of which the people who went into the space of the other group were the people on the left.

I realize that you feel a need to defend your team, but I find it pretty pathetic that you would sink to such levels as to intentionally misrepresent the situation, when you would immediately, and rightfully, call out anybody who would say something like: "The Muslims are killing people in Terror attacks!". What an astonishing double standard.

 

[Senethro]

I realize that you feel a need to defend your team, but I find it pretty pathetic that you would sink to such levels as to intentionally misrepresent the situation, when you would immediately, and rightfully, call out anybody who would say something like: "The Muslims are killing people in Terror attacks!". What an astonishing double standard.

Projection much? Jesus christ. How many posts in this thread did your purported stance of "the two sides are just as bad" last then.

Is the left and its radical dangerous ideas of not being jerks to people really the cause of so much fear that you'll back nazis over them even as fatal attacks are happening?

 

[Cutlass]

The Nazis did not "start killing people", one person who, as far as I know, was not even affiliated with the protest, used a car to kill people, while everybody else held protests and then started going at each other, like they did on several other events, most of which the people who went into the space of the other group were the people on the left.

I realize that you feel a need to defend your team, but I find it pretty pathetic that you would sink to such levels as to intentionally misrepresent the situation, when you would immediately, and rightfully, call out anybody who would say something like: "The Muslims are killing people in Terror attacks!". What an astonishing double standard.

The difference is that 'Muslims' is not a subgroup of humanity which seeks to harm everyone who is not part of their group. 'Fascist' is such a subgroup. To say that 'Muslims are..' is the same as saying 'Whites are..', which is to say that there are subgroups within 'Muslims' that are doing that, but not the whole, just as there are subgroups within 'whites' who are. The issue here is that 'fascists, white nationalists, the alt-right' are the subgroups within the greater group of 'whites' which actively want, or are working for, doing harm to others for their own benefit and ideology.

 

[red_elk]

How dare you call them Fascist?! If you are after democracy, you should help them with money, so that they could build a long-standing camp with a trebuchet!

Add to that a war against monuments, anti-Russian hysteria and appeals to build a wall along the border.
Ukrainian syndrome.

 

[Traitorfish]

The Nazis did not "start killing people", one person who, as far as I know, was not even affiliated with the protest, used a car to kill people, while everybody else held protests and then started going at each other, like they did on several other events, most of which the people who went into the space of the other group were the people on the left.

Ah, so we've gone from "both sides are equally bad" to "the left are actually worse".

That was quick.

 

[Ryika]

Projection much? Jesus christ. How many posts in this thread did your purported stance of "the two sides are just as bad" last then.

Is the left and its radical dangerous ideas of not being jerks to people really the cause of so much fear that you'll back nazis over them even as fatal attacks are happening?

Maybe you should take a step back and have a look what is being discussed about. You might realize that I'm not talking about "the left", or claiming that these people are exemplary of the left, I'm talking about left-wing extremists who take part in street fights against right-wing extremists.

I am talking about the violent extremists of both sides that we have seen going at each other a few times now. Look at the scenes where those fights happen - again, look at the videos where they are bashing people on the ground, or hitting people with weapons. Look up Eric Clanton, the guy who is lucky to not be charged for murder, because he could easy have cracked a skull while he, hidden under a mask, hit people on the head with a heavy bike lock that could just have cracked their skulls.

Those are the people I'm talking about, look at the freaking raw footage that you find on the internet and you'll see how violent that specific group of "protesters" are. If you had any sense of decency, you would disown these people, not protect them, just because they pretend to be on your team.

Ah, so we've gone from "both sides are equally bad" to "the left are actually worse".

That was quick.

Depends on what you're looking at. In terms of ideology, no, the right is clearly worse in my opinion, especially the group of the right that we saw on this specific protest, as many of them see to indeed be Nazis, or at least heavily racist people with fascist tendencies.

In terms of "who started the fights" though, yeah, the extremists of the left certainly have a worse track record than those on the right.

 

[Senethro]

It is not impolite to start a fight with holders of an ideology advocating ethnostates by whatever means necessary. They aren't looking to have a rational debate on the merits of genocide.

They are making a threat of violence and some people aren't willing to wait for them to follow through on it.

 

[Ryika]

It is not impolite to start a fight with holders of an ideology advocating ethnostates by whatever means necessary. They aren't looking to have a rational debate on the merits of genocide.

They are making a threat of violence and some people aren't willing to wait for them to follow through on it.

Well see, in this specific case I don't actually have much to say against that (other than that it's a dumb tactic that will just create more fascists if successful, but people aren't going to listen to that anyway), however, in previous events the majority of the protesters were neither fascists, nor Nazis, but simple Trump voters and other people protesting against political correctness and identity politics.