Feedback: Corporations

[Xyth]

Apologies for not commenting on any of the suggestions made so far. I am reading it all though so keep it coming, it's very helpful. A few quick comments:

• I cannot add a slider or such for corporate tax/subsidies. These would need to be determined by civic choices and combinations, and possibly adjusted by buildings too (Stock Exchange, Custom House, etc). Other factors like settled great people could play a part too.
  
  
• I like the idea of free market corporations (spread on their own) vs. state controlled corporations (spread by the player), determined via civics. Gives the player an interesting choice.
  
  
• My grand dream for all this is that I can turn the corporation mechanic (with help from the events system and much custom coding) into a broader 'Organizations' mechanic, of which corporations are a subcategory. No finalized or clear plans yet but imagine the mechanic also supporting organizations such as the Hanseatic League, the Illuminati, the Mafia, Greenpeace, Al Qaeda, Amnesty International, etc.
  
  
• The overriding concept of all this being that the choices you make for your cities and civilizations as a whole can attract certain non-state entities to your cities, and determine how much control you have over them.
  
  
• This has potential to quickly turn into the biggest mechanics overhaul I've ever attempted. I can't promise this is all possible, there are bound to be many challenges implementing this, technically and conceptually. At this point I think this will probably need to be a job for 1.19 rather than 1.18 (which I want to keep relatively simple since 1.17 took so long to finish).

 

[Xyth]

Corporations Overhaul - Stage One


I think one of the most important and interesting function of the corporation system in BTS is that it's a method of making a civilization interested in having multiple resources of the same type. I want to retain that function, but expand and balance it. So that's where I've started with this overhaul; at this point I'm not addressing aspects such as foundation, spread, executives, headquarters, civics and maintenance. That will come in later stages which may or may not come in 1.18. Here's the list:

Aramco
Energy, based in Arabia
• Requires: Refining, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Peat, Coal, Gas, Oil, Copper
• Provides: and
• Competitors: BASF, Rio Tinto, Toyota, Vinci


Barilla
Mediterranean Food, based in Italy
• Requires: ???, Great Artist
• Consumes: Wheat, Rice, Olives, Spice, Wine
• Provides:
• Competitors: General Mills, McDonalds, Nestlé, Taiyo


BASF
Chemicals, based in Germany
• Requires: Plastics, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Dye, Rubber, Coal, Oil, Uranium
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, Toyota, Vinci, Bombay Dyeing


Bombay Dyeing
Textiles, based in India
• Requires: ???, Great Artist
• Consumes: Dye, Cotton, Flax, Silk, Sheep
• Provides: and
• Competitors: BASF


De Beers
Jewelry, based in South Africa
• Requires: Photography, Great Artist
• Consumes: Gold, Silver, Amber, Jade, Gems
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Rio Tinto


East India Company
Tropical Goods, based in the West & East Indies
• Requires: Corporation, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Fruit, Incense, Coffee, Tea, Tobacco
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Nestlé


General Mills
Agriculture, based in America
• Requires: Fertilizer, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Corn, Rice, Wheat, Potato, Sugar
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, McDonalds, Nestlé, Taiyo


Hudson Bay
Arctic Goods, based in Canada
• Requires: Meteorology, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Bison, Deer, Furs, Seal, Whale
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Taiyo


McDonalds
Fast Food, based in America
• Requires: Mass Media, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Cattle, Pig, Wheat, Potato, Salt
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, General Mills, Nestlé, Taiyo


Nestlé
Dairy and Beverages, based in Switzerland
• Requires: Refrigeration, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Cattle, Sugar, Spice, Cocoa, Coffee
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, General Mills, McDonalds, East India Company


Rio Tinto
Mining, based in Spain and Australia
• Requires: Metallurgy, Great Engineer
• Consumes: Gold, Silver, Copper, Iron, Aluminium
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, Toyota, Vinci, De Beers


Taiyo
Seafood, based in Japan
• Requires: ???, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Shellfish, Crab, Whale, Rice, Salt
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, General Mills, McDonalds, Hudson Bay


Toyota
Automotives, based in Japan
• Requires: Automobile, Great Engineer
• Consumes: Gas, Oil, Rubber, Iron, Aluminium
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, BASF, Rio Tinto, Vinci


Vinci
Construction, based in France
• Requires: Assembly Line, Great Engineer
• Consumes: Prime Timber, Stone, Marble, Iron, Oil
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, BASF, Rio Tinto, Toyota​

Details

• There are 14 corporations, 5 that provide food, 5 that provide production, and 4 that provide commerce. The production and commerce corporations also provide a commerce type - 3 give wealth, 3 give research, and 3 give culture. The food corporations do not provide a commerce type as food is generally more powerful than the other yields.
  
• I've not determined numbers for yields and commerces yet. That will need to wait until other mechanics are better defined.
  
• Every corporation consumes 5 resources and never shares more than 2 resources with any other corporation.
  
• Of the food corporations, 3 of them compete with every other food corporation, meaning you can only ever have 1 of these in a city. The other 2 food corporations can exist in the same city but each blocks a different commerce corporation instead.
  
• Production corporations compete in the same way as food corporations.
  
• Commerce corporations do not compete with each other but each has a food or production corporation that can block it.
  
• Prime Timber is a new resource coming in 1.18.
  
• Fish are not included in any corporation due to balance issues between map types.
  
• The only other resources not included in this scheme are Horses, Elephants, and the 'Hit' resources.
  
• Although I've listed each corporation as requiring a great person, I don't yet know if that will remain the way they're founded.
  
• I still plan to use the corporation mechanic for other corporations or organizations that aren't focused on resources. Will get to that in time.

 

[Keinpferd]

How about including the Brazilian corporation Petróleo Brasileiro (or Petrobras)? It's the largest company of the southern hemisphere, a semi-public kraken with a lot more on its agenda than oil business; they are also big time cultural sponsors and acclaimed supporters of whale conservation…And since it's Brazilian, it goes well together with HR's global and non-eurocentrist focus.

It's probably not the task of a video game mod to be too heavy on politics and press one own's political preference on others, but speaking of corporations, I'd be interested to learn, how this phenomenon of transnational corporate power (or wider non state-actor's power), that shapes our lives, can be approached in the confinements of a non SDK mod.

The essential trait of the corporate world, that should translate in a mod somehow, is the lack of international law, democratic legitimization and political control, despite they are much, much bigger and more powerful "ecomomies" than a small country like Greece, for example. Corporations could be a force to the good of mankind, of course, but in a rather non-judgmental way, it's obvious to see, that they are responsible for all kinds of inequality, human rights infringements – and natural disasters, like BP or TEPCO. Corporations should be a part of the game, where decisions tend to get out of hands of the player. The player is confronted with a "life of it's own", when dealing with "corporate" game mechanisms.

Also, recent global developments, that facilitated corporate empowerement, technology transfer, transport, travel, internet, could play a role here: when you research the HR techs mass transportation or internet, this will have an impact on the corporation side of the game. Just a little more brainstorming… to be continued…

 

[Howard Mahler]

A good start.

A key will be to have a reasonable balance between the benefit and the cost.

I assume the countries where the corporation is based have no game relevance.

Prime Timber will be useful for what?
I assume you prefer that name to hardwoods.

 

[Xyth]

How about including the Brazilian corporation Petróleo Brasileiro (or Petrobras)? It's the largest company of the southern hemisphere, a semi-public kraken with a lot more on its agenda than oil business; they are also big time cultural sponsors and acclaimed supporters of whale conservation…And since it's Brazilian, it goes well together with HR's global and non-eurocentrist focus.

It was hard deciding between Aramco and Petrobras for the energy corporation. I went with Aramco in the end because it was the older of the two (especially when Aramco's precursors are considered) and I really wanted the Middle East to be represented.

It's probably not the task of a video game mod to be too heavy on politics and press one own's political preference on others, but speaking of corporations, I'd be interested to learn, how this phenomenon of transnational corporate power (or wider non state-actor's power), that shapes our lives, can be approached in the confinements of a non SDK mod.

Me too! I have some ideas and I'll need to do a lot of experimenting to see what can be achieved. It'll be something that will accumulate of several versions of HR.

A good start.

A key will be to have a reasonable balance between the benefit and the cost.

Yep, that will be a challenge for sure.

I assume the countries where the corporation is based have no game relevance.

Yeah, it won't mean anything in game. I've just tried to choose corporations that represent a significant portion of the world.

Prime Timber will be useful for what?
I assume you prefer that name to hardwoods.

It will be a strategic resource that make ships and siege units cheaper to build. I dislike the name 'hardwood' as it's actually softwoods like pine and cedar that are most useful for large constructions like ships.

Incidentally I'm also adding the Shipwright as a new building unlocked at Artisanry. It will provide production for coastal cities from Prime Timber and grant experience to ships a la Barracks and Stables.

 

[Howard Mahler]

"It will be a strategic resource that make ships and siege units cheaper to build. I dislike the name 'hardwood' as it's actually softwoods like pine and cedar that are most useful for large constructions like ships.

Incidentally I'm also adding the Shipwright as a new building unlocked at Artisanry. It will provide production for coastal cities from Prime Timber and grant experience to ships a la Barracks and Stables."

I assume Prime Timber will make wooden ships and wooden siege units cheaper to build. It should not apply for example to cannons or cruisers.

Shipwright could instead be Shipyard, which could come in earlier, perhaps at Navigation or Astronomy.
Would Shipwright (or Shipyard) only apply to wooden ships?
The Dock also gives experience to ships; will this be changed to only apply to metal ships?

 

[Simon_Jester]

Since unit costs would be influenced on a per-unit basis, much as specific wonders get production bonuses with Stone or Marble or whatever... I would assume he can specify that ships get constructed faster with Prime Timber.

Although if you double the production rate ships are going to be dirt cheap. Either the civilizations with Prime Timber have a totally crushing naval advantage (which may be intended), or you effectively halve the cost of wooden ships for all nations, in which case you really ought to bump up their raw hammer costs... although that penalizes civilizations which lack it.

 

[Xyth]

See my responses in the buildings thread.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Currently corporations generate income at headquarters and cost maintenance in their city. If in addition they generate commerce then we have three competing streams of money from building one corporation in one city.
Seems like an unnecessary complication, which makes game balancing difficult.
The same applies to a lesser extent for providing science.

I like the variety you have.
I suggest that in order to implement it you also need to simplify the current corporate mechanism.

Corporations Overhaul - Stage One


I think one of the most important and interesting function of the corporation system in BTS is that it's a method of making a civilization interested in having multiple resources of the same type. I want to retain that function, but expand and balance it. So that's where I've started with this overhaul; at this point I'm not addressing aspects such as foundation, spread, executives, headquarters, civics and maintenance. That will come in later stages which may or may not come in 1.18. Here's the list:

Aramco
Energy, based in Arabia
• Requires: Refining, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Peat, Coal, Gas, Oil, Copper
• Provides: and
• Competitors: BASF, Rio Tinto, Toyota, Vinci


Barilla
Mediterranean Food, based in Italy
• Requires: ???, Great Artist
• Consumes: Wheat, Rice, Olives, Spice, Wine
• Provides:
• Competitors: General Mills, McDonalds, Nestlé, Taiyo


BASF
Chemicals, based in Germany
• Requires: Plastics, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Dye, Rubber, Coal, Oil, Uranium
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, Toyota, Vinci, Bombay Dyeing


Bombay Dyeing
Textiles, based in India
• Requires: ???, Great Artist
• Consumes: Dye, Cotton, Flax, Silk, Sheep
• Provides: and
• Competitors: BASF


De Beers
Jewelry, based in South Africa
• Requires: Photography, Great Artist
• Consumes: Gold, Silver, Amber, Jade, Gems
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Rio Tinto


East India Company
Tropical Goods, based in the West & East Indies
• Requires: Corporation, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Fruit, Incense, Coffee, Tea, Tobacco
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Nestlé


General Mills
Agriculture, based in America
• Requires: Fertilizer, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Corn, Rice, Wheat, Potato, Sugar
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, McDonalds, Nestlé, Taiyo


Hudson Bay
Arctic Goods, based in Canada
• Requires: Meteorology, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Bison, Deer, Furs, Seal, Whale
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Taiyo


McDonalds
Fast Food, based in America
• Requires: Mass Media, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Cattle, Pig, Wheat, Potato, Salt
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, General Mills, Nestlé, Taiyo


Nestlé
Dairy and Beverages, based in Switzerland
• Requires: Refrigeration, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Cattle, Sugar, Spice, Cocoa, Coffee
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, General Mills, McDonalds, East India Company


Rio Tinto
Mining, based in Spain and Australia
• Requires: Metallurgy, Great Engineer
• Consumes: Gold, Silver, Copper, Iron, Aluminium
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, Toyota, Vinci, De Beers


Taiyo
Seafood, based in Japan
• Requires: ???, Great Merchant
• Consumes: Shellfish, Crab, Whale, Rice, Salt
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, General Mills, McDonalds, Hudson Bay


Toyota
Automotives, based in Japan
• Requires: Automobile, Great Engineer
• Consumes: Gas, Oil, Rubber, Iron, Aluminium
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, BASF, Rio Tinto, Vinci


Vinci
Construction, based in France
• Requires: Assembly Line, Great Engineer
• Consumes: Prime Timber, Stone, Marble, Iron, Oil
• Provides: and
• Competitors: Aramco, BASF, Rio Tinto, Toyota​

Details

• There are 14 corporations, 5 that provide food, 5 that provide production, and 4 that provide commerce. The production and commerce corporations also provide a commerce type - 3 give wealth, 3 give research, and 3 give culture. The food corporations do not provide a commerce type as food is generally more powerful than the other yields.
  
• I've not determined numbers for yields and commerces yet. That will need to wait until other mechanics are better defined.
  
• Every corporation consumes 5 resources and never shares more than 2 resources with any other corporation.
  
• Of the food corporations, 3 of them compete with every other food corporation, meaning you can only ever have 1 of these in a city. The other 2 food corporations can exist in the same city but each blocks a different commerce corporation instead.
  
• Production corporations compete in the same way as food corporations.
  
• Commerce corporations do not compete with each other but each has a food or production corporation that can block it.
  
• Prime Timber is a new resource coming in 1.18.
  
• Fish are not included in any corporation due to balance issues between map types.
  
• The only other resources not included in this scheme are Horses, Elephants, and the 'Hit' resources.
  
• Although I've listed each corporation as requiring a great person, I don't yet know if that will remain the way they're founded.
  
• I still plan to use the corporation mechanic for other corporations or organizations that aren't focused on resources. Will get to that in time.

 

[Xyth]

Currently corporations generate income at headquarters and cost maintenance in their city. If in addition they generate commerce then we have three competing streams of money from building one corporation in one city.
Seems like an unnecessary complication, which makes game balancing difficult.
The same applies to a lesser extent for providing science.

I like the variety you have.
I suggest that in order to implement it you also need to simplify the current corporate mechanism.

Yep, that's what Stage Two will be about and it will be part of 1.18. Still in the conceptual stage at the moment though, I'll post it for discussion once I've got it better defined.

Don't hesitate to offer suggestions in the meantime though.

 

[Xyth]

I'm not quite sure how to handle logos for these new corporations. Some, like McDonalds or Toyota have easily recognizable logos that would fit perfectly. Some, like BASF and Rio Tinto, have logos that are little more than text and can't easily be reshaped to the necessary dimensions. Others, like Aramco and Bombay Dyeing, have usable logos but that aren't particularly familiar and give no real indication of what type of corporation they are.

Perhaps it's best I use invented/generic logos for all these corporations, similar in style to the standard BTS ones? Let me know what you think. Links to suggested images or logos are very welcome.

 

[lindsay40k]

Hi, I really like your mod! I had to pop in and contribute my ha'pennorth

I'm very impressed with your proposed 'balanced' corporations. Having recently mastered the Mining/Sushi combo as a Hannibal/Musa player, I'd definitely like to see a more balanced system, and I like how you're starting from the numbers.

I really like @atirtanadi's suggestion for public & private sector corporations. The idea of McDonalds' 'spawning' somewhere and the host country's government getting cosy with Big Meat and in effect subsidising attempts to ram it down every other country's throat is great!

And enabling players to both set up their own public sector car company if Toyota won't invest, or nationalise TNC's that are draining too much money, seems like a great counter to the issues of players 'hoarding' corporations or using them to drain money from everyone else. But then, why spread it abroad if they can just nationalise it?

I'd suggest a couple of things with relation to this: to increase the 'feel' of the Corporations being NGOs motivated by profit, here's an idea - 'Class Warfare' event:

- May occur in any civ with a Stock Exchange and Labor Unions tech.

Prominent business leaders demand government stop interfering in the free market. However, Marxist agitators win the ears of organised workers who are outraged about capitalist greed.

• Free enterprise is to be encouraged.
L All public sector corp branches become private sector corp branches. If the private corp has not yet been founded, the HQ is spawned in whichever city has a branch and the highest gold production.
L Not using Free Market civic: additionally, switch to Free Market; anarchy ensures.

• Enterprise serves the government. If the shareholders don't like it, they can go elsewhere.
L No change in corp ownership or civics, but the Stock Exchange is destroyed. (Can rebuild.)

• Workers of the world, unite!
L All private sector corp branches become public sector. The Stock Exchange is destroyed. (Can rebuild.)
L All corporate HQ's in your Civ respawn in another city in another Civ. (Preference given to Free Market, high supply of corp's resources, presence of Stock Exchange, proximity.)
L Using Free Market civic:additionally, switch to Industrialism; anarchy ensures.
L Domino effect: next turn all Civs with neighbouring borders are invited to join the revolution; all of this option happens, plus any AI who join the revolution get a relations bonuses with all other Civs that revolt.

Additionally, you may also attempt to trigger Class War in a rival Civ with a Stock Exchange and Labor Unions via Espionage. (It'd be pricey.) You can also 'weight' the decision as you make the espionage strike:

• Just watch everything kick off. (A bit cheaper.)
L Standard Class War event.

• Support the Right. (A bit cheaper if your civic is Free Market.)
L 10 turns of +1

if the target selects 'Free Enterprise'. 10 turns of +1

if they select 'Serve the government.' 20 turns of +1

and an extra 10 turns of +1

if they select 'Workers of the world'.

• Support the Centrists.
L 10 turns of +1

if the target selects 'Serve the government'. 10 turns of +1

if they select 'Workers of the world' or 'Free Enterprise'.

• Support the Left. (A bit cheaper if your civic is Industrialism.)
L 10 turns of +1

if the target selects 'Workers of the world'. 10 turns of +1

if they select 'Serve the government.' 20 turns of +1

and an extra 10 turns of +1

if they select 'Free Enterprise'.

I hope this representation of class warfare will be fun and entertaining regardless of the player's feelings about political economy.

With regard to the 'real world' corporate logos, I'm inclined to say don't change a thing about them. We've all come to recognise the made-up 'C' and 'e' logos that mean 'extra food for grain resources' and 'convert food to oil and research'. A few long games and we'll all be well familiar with the various logos of companies that don't have the global penetration of Maccy Dee, I'm sure there's plenty of things about the world we've all learned through Civ

Oh, and expanding the corporation system to other NGOs seems cool as well. I'm trying to work out how Al Qaida would work... it'd have to be non faith-specific IMO. Didn't AQ basically arise as a result of the USA arming & funding the Mujahideen against the pro-Soviet Afghan government and the USSR marching in and pouring gas on the fire? So I guess a Civ 'reenactment' would be Russia giving the Afghan Empire some gifts to sweeten them up for a Defensive Pact, with America sending Spies into Afghan cities to perform 'influence Civics (Theocracy)' missions, with an objective of spoiling relations with a Russian leader who prefers the 'Free Religion' (or perhaps 'Rationalism') civic so that relations sour and the pact collapses.

So perhaps to expand that a little more, perhaps various non-state military organisations could arise from persistent 'influence civics' activity, to the benefit of the target? To complete the 'reenactment' here, a 'Brotherhood' NGO would spawn in the Afghan Civ; perhaps, take the form of a 'Martyr' unit, which can establish a Training Camp in a city, which enables a city to build more Martyrs? And the Martyr could be like a Spy unit with more 'distinct' options? The advantage of this is that it's an event that benefits the weaker player and acts as a balancing factor.

I suppose this raises the next question of a War On Terror reenactment. Which would require the Brotherhood to be capable of operating in multiple Civs (easy enough), and for it to be possible to attempt to remove the Brotherhood from your own cities, and for it to be possible to demand this of other Civs (say, through the UN or AP).

In fact, looking through all this, it occurs to me that each civic could perhaps have an NGO attached to it, with martyrs/activists/agitators who act as Spies in Civs not using that civic (with a limited range of options to convert, punish or resist the "oppressors"), or a missionary in civs that meet their approval... Amnesty, the IMF, the Fourth International, Stop The War, Greenpeace all lend themselves very nicely to pushing for a particular civic.

 

[Howard Mahler]

From a game playing standpoint, logos should be colorful and easily distinguished from each other. While it is probably not a big deal, actual logos do have copyright concerns. For me personally, using actual logos does not add anything.

I suspect just working off the current BTS logos adding enough variety would work fine. If that approach is relatively easy, I would just go for it.

I'm not quite sure how to handle logos for these new corporations. Some, like McDonalds or Toyota have easily recognizable logos that would fit perfectly. Some, like BASF and Rio Tinto, have logos that are little more than text and can't easily be reshaped to the necessary dimensions. Others, like Aramco and Bombay Dyeing, have usable logos but that aren't particularly familiar and give no real indication of what type of corporation they are.

Perhaps it's best I use invented/generic logos for all these corporations, similar in style to the standard BTS ones? Let me know what you think. Links to suggested images or logos are very welcome.

 

[Keinpferd]

[…]here's an idea - 'Class Warfare' event:

- May occur in any civ with a Stock Exchange and Labor Unions tech.

Prominent business leaders demand government stop interfering in the free market. However, Marxist agitators win the ears of organised workers who are outraged about capitalist greed.[…]

Combining corporations with events, is a very good idea, the more the better. From Xyth's modder perspective, once-occuring events may be little rewarding, though, in regard to the amount of work they take. (Unless elaborated text is already provided, like in your example, perhaps.)

Combining corporations and civics would also be nice, but there are rather limited possibilities for a non SDK mod, mainly restricted to having civics modify the upkeep of corporations or controlling their spread.

 

[lindsay40k]

While it is probably not a big deal, actual logos do have copyright concerns.

How much does this matter in a nonprofit mod educational that's not seeking official publisher support? For-profit publications replicate copyrighted logos all the time. Burger King and Ford might be angrier not to be included...

 

[lindsay40k]

Combining corporations with events, is a very good idea, the more the better. From Xyth's modder perspective, once-occuring events may be little rewarding, though, in regard to the amount of work they take. (Unless elaborated text is already provided, like in your example, perhaps.)

Ah now, by making the event inducible by Espionage, it's no longer a once-in-a-blue-moon thing. Also, if the options in the event can always be voluntarily chosen by players mad at upkeep costs of TNC's - or wanting to turn their painstakingly constructed public seafood halls into cash cows - then it's also supplementing the existing civics system.

Of course, if you nationalise the assets of a TNC, then the Civ in which the corporat HQ is based is going to be a bit unhappy and incur a relations penalty...

 

[Nightstar]

Corporations Overhaul - Stage One

General Mills
Agriculture, based in America
• Requires: Fertilizer, Great Scientist
• Consumes: Corn, Rice, Wheat, Potato, Sugar
• Provides:
• Competitors: Barilla, McDonalds, Nestlé, Taiyo
[/LIST]

I see a potential balance problem here: This corp uses all four farm resources, which can be generated in substantial quantities via aggressive farming.

As an example of how this can be abused, in my current game I'm playing on a standard size Terra map. I started isolated on a mostly plains Australia analogue with just enough room for seven cities with minimal overlap. With so much low food terrain, I needed to build lots of farms to feed my population, and by turn 720 (on Odyssey, so that's only 40% of the way through the game) those farms have generated no less than *14* new food resources!

 

[Xyth]

Hi, I really like your mod! I had to pop in and contribute my ha'pennorth

Glad you're enjoying it and your input is most welcome.

I'm very impressed with your proposed 'balanced' corporations. Having recently mastered the Mining/Sushi combo as a Hannibal/Musa player, I'd definitely like to see a more balanced system, and I like how you're starting from the numbers.

Like many additions and changes, it will probably take several versions before we get it all balanced to our satisfaction, but we'll get there in the end.

I really like @atirtanadi's suggestion for public & private sector corporations. The idea of McDonalds' 'spawning' somewhere and the host country's government getting cosy with Big Meat and in effect subsidising attempts to ram it down every other country's throat is great!

Yeah it's a cool idea but it's going to be challenging from a technical point of view. By necessity, such a scheme will start out basic and develop over time.

And enabling players to both set up their own public sector car company if Toyota won't invest, or nationalise TNC's that are draining too much money, seems like a great counter to the issues of players 'hoarding' corporations or using them to drain money from everyone else. But then, why spread it abroad if they can just nationalise it?

This is probably further than I can take the system. Competition in the real world is generally between corporations of the same type (e.g., Toyota vs Ford vs VW), whereas in HR it needs to remain between corporations that need the same resources. Not as realistic, but considerably more practical in terms of game mechanics.

So in your example above, if Toyota is not spreading/investing in your civilization, you can't create your own public auto company to compete. You could, however, set up a public chemical company - BASF - that provides similar benefits.

Another way to implement it might be via 'franchise headquarters' but such an approach has potential balance issues with 14 corporations in play.

Oh, and expanding the corporation system to other NGOs seems cool as well. I'm trying to work out how Al Qaida would work... it'd have to be non faith-specific IMO.

I'm not likely to use all the corporation mechanics for other NGOs, primarily just the concept of something that can spread from city to city under certain conditions.

Didn't AQ basically arise as a result of the USA arming & funding the Mujahideen against the pro-Soviet Afghan government and the USSR marching in and pouring gas on the fire? So I guess a Civ 'reenactment' would be Russia giving the Afghan Empire some gifts to sweeten them up for a Defensive Pact, with America sending Spies into Afghan cities to perform 'influence Civics (Theocracy)' missions, with an objective of spoiling relations with a Russian leader who prefers the 'Free Religion' (or perhaps 'Rationalism') civic so that relations sour and the pact collapses.

I definitely won't be doing any reenactments as such. In a game of HR, Al Qaeda could be a fundamentalist Buddhist sect, harboured by the Romans and performing terrorist acts against the imperious Indonesians. Where they are founded and how they spread would be determined by factors such as civic choice, state religion, balance of power, etc. This is all still very much on the drawing board and will probably be handled primarily through the event system rather than player controlled units or buildings.

In fact, looking through all this, it occurs to me that each civic could perhaps have an NGO attached to it, with martyrs/activists/agitators who act as Spies in Civs not using that civic (with a limited range of options to convert, punish or resist the "oppressors"), or a missionary in civs that meet their approval... Amnesty, the IMF, the Fourth International, Stop The War, Greenpeace all lend themselves very nicely to pushing for a particular civic.

As mentioned earlier, it's very challenging to get the AI to understand 'non-standard' implications of the civic system. So while there should be NGO interaction with civics we have to be careful not to implement it in a way that a human player can utilize it in ways that the AI cannot.

Nothing remotely finalized yet, but I imagine each NGO would have a list of 'encouraging factors' and 'discouraging factors', which could be civics, buildings, diplomatic conditions, etc. These factors would guide where each NGO likes to establish itself and to who it would like to grant benefits and who it takes punitive action against.

I'd suggest a couple of things with relation to this: to increase the 'feel' of the Corporations being NGOs motivated by profit, here's an idea - 'Class Warfare' event:

I hope this representation of class warfare will be fun and entertaining regardless of the player's feelings about political economy.

There is a lot of scope for interesting events connected with corporations and other NGOs. I like your suggestions. I plan to do a lot of work with events though that probably won't happen until after 1.18 now.

Combining corporations with events, is a very good idea, the more the better. From Xyth's modder perspective, once-occuring events may be little rewarding, though, in regard to the amount of work they take. (Unless elaborated text is already provided, like in your example, perhaps.)

Combining corporations and civics would also be nice, but there are rather limited possibilities for a non SDK mod, mainly restricted to having civics modify the upkeep of corporations or controlling their spread.

The challenge is not adding new functionality to the civics, but teaching the AI to understand them. Regardless, I think some interaction between civics and corporations/NGOs is essential so hopefully I can come up with a reasonable implementation.

From a game playing standpoint, logos should be colorful and easily distinguished from each other. While it is probably not a big deal, actual logos do have copyright concerns. For me personally, using actual logos does not add anything.

I suspect just working off the current BTS logos adding enough variety would work fine. If that approach is relatively easy, I would just go for it.

How much does this matter in a nonprofit mod educational that's not seeking official publisher support? For-profit publications replicate copyrighted logos all the time. Burger King and Ford might be angrier not to be included...

It's pretty unlikely HR would ever catch the attention of one of these corporations' legal teams and if so, they'd probably appreciate the free advertising. When it comes to the logos I'm more concerned with clarity, many don't scale well at all.

I see a potential balance problem here: This corp uses all four farm resources, which can be generated in substantial quantities via aggressive farming.

As an example of how this can be abused, in my current game I'm playing on a standard size Terra map. I started isolated on a mostly plains Australia analogue with just enough room for seven cities with minimal overlap. With so much low food terrain, I needed to build lots of farms to feed my population, and by turn 720 (on Odyssey, so that's only 40% of the way through the game) those farms have generated no less than *14* new food resources!

The corporations won't all have the same yield, I'll be taking into account how common their resources are and whether they obsolete. Some corporations may also have lower or higher maintenance/subsidies/dividends (still working out what's possible/desirable here).

 

[lindsay40k]

I definitely won't be doing any reenactments as such. In a game of HR, Al Qaeda could be a fundamentalist Buddhist sect, harboured by the Romans and performing terrorist acts against the imperious Indonesians.

Oh sure, I was just thinking out loud as to how a reenactment of sorts could end up occurring with a generic 'fundamentalism advocacy' NGO. I find it helpful sometimes to work backwards from a conclusion, to get an idea of where to start with the numbers and mechanics

 

[atirtanadi]

With regards to using real companies' names and logos - it's actually a trademark issue, not a copyright issue. The elements of proving infringement are different. In trademark cases, a plaintiff would basically need to show that the defendant's use of the mark was "likely to cause confusion." Since your not selling anything in HR, and not even in same the market as any of the mentioned corporations, it is unlikely there is "confusion" sufficient for infringement. (It would be a different story if you used a video game corporation's logo in your mod).

Still, its not inconceivable that you could receive a demand letter from one of these corporations. If that happened, you would have to rewrite your mod or hire a lawyer, which you may not want to do. To be safe it would probably be best just to use generic logos and to mix up the names (i.e. MacDougalds instead of McDonalds).