Female genital mutilation

[warpus]

It's not the laser-part that is so abhorring. It's the fact that people even consider this mutilation for aesthetic reasons.

I don't think that's why it's done

 

[JZ_UK]

...how does a laser "improve muscle tone" surely, thats beyond the range of a device that seers off a layer of cells?

and "women who want to reconstruct their hymen to its original state" has got to be one of the silliest surgical interventions ever, I mean, seriously, once the bottle is broken why glue it back together? Got more money than sense and like pain and mess? =/

 

[Japanrocks12]

I don't think that's why it's done

it seemed like was a clinic - just like plastic surgery so I don't get why it would be done for any reason other than cosmetic

 

[warpus]

I thought we were talking about female circumcision here. Maybe not? I"m too hungover to go back and re-read.

 

[nivi]

FGM is the uglier side of humanity.

I do belive that the vid was for cosmetic value only. If we are discussing pretty gross things people do for thier "appearence", anal bleaching comes to mind.

 

[Arwon]

The trick with cultural relativism is that you don't have to criticise an entire culture to condemn a certain practise. There are activists and opponents to things like FGM in every culture, and it's perfectly valid to side with those members of that culture.

 

[plarq]

They have no right to castrate underaged girls!!!

 

[JZ_UK]

...what about women of age? O_o

 

[Merkinball]

Spoiler :

Vaginal penetrative sex would be an altogether unpleasant experience, the cavity opening being scared and fragile, it would be like trying to force jagged glass =/ and... I try to remain as far from crude as possible... the 'other' option is not necessarily going to be all that pleasant as the vagina is damaged and thus the... indirect pressure would not have the same effects as it otherwise would, and of course, if the clitoris has been excised theres no room for manual stimulation.

In short, if there is good sex after cleaving great chunks of the genitals off then... in fact, I struggle to concede such is possible.

Non-genital erogenous contact is a wonderful part of the meal and if it brings pleasure than fabulous... but... literally, preventing all the rest is to destroy the act... - JZ-UK

JZ put the spoil text around it, I'm not gonna.

Who's slept with a virgin? Who's a girl and was a virgin? The first time's not very pleasent is it? But as time goes on, it becomes pleasurable. By and large, it's the same concept here, except more drawn out. Djiboutian women like to get jiggy jiggy too. It's just the honeymoon that they really don't like.

With that said, one of the big things that FGM like this can do, is hit certain nerves that CAN for the most part deaden everything. I can't say as I've ever encountered anybody that TOLD me this though. The few Somali women that I've talked to about this have had next to no problems. Today it's also quite common that the husbands will take their wives, or fiance's to the doctor to get the sewing undone in a sterile environment. Then they let the reopening heal before they consumate the marraige.

As for the scar it creates, there's some literature out there that says the scar itself remains sensitive, although not like it originally was of course. In most women it still remains and errogenous zone.

 

[Winner]

How civilized the Islamic tradition is, huh?

I've heard about it before and talked about it with my fairly apolitical and totally non-religious friend who doesn't care a bit what religious people do. When I saw him few days later, he said something like "I found few articles about it on Internet, and as I see it, we (Europe, Civilized world, whatver) should invade every country where this is a norm and kill anyone who would sanction that."

I must say I agree.

Why would anyone want a woman for whom sex was an extraordinarily painful experience? It sounds very much like extreme sadism. It worries me as much as the cruelty of doing this that so many men actually like it.

Ooh, yes please, I want my wife to scream in agony when we have sex. Surely that'll make her love me and not cheat...

Welcome to the world of Islam mixed with primitive traditions. Women are supposed to be submissive, in fact like a personal property of the husband. This is just another way how to ensure that.

It's totally disgusting, my friend was right.

 

[Azash]

It's quite an old practice. I'm surprised most of you haven't heard it.

 

[Ecofarm]

Where were all you people when I was using FGM to justify interventionism!?

And the reason they do it is simple - to control women.

 

[silver 2039]

How civilized the Islamic tradition is, huh?

Welcome to the world of Islam mixed with primitive traditions. Women are supposed to be submissive, in fact like a personal property of the husband. This is just another way how to ensure that.

How intreasting you automatically assume it's an Islamic tradition:

The practice of FGC predates both Islam and Christianity and there is no clear understanding of where or why the practice of FGC came into existence. Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[17] It was most likely spread throughout the Northern parts of Africa with Arab slave traders and is now practiced among Muslims, Christians and Animists.[18] However, religion alone is not the common thread amongst FGC advocates, as it transcends both culture and religion. UNICEF stated that when "looking at religion independently, it is not possible to establish a general association with FGM/C status

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

FGM was practised by the minority Ethiopian Jewish community (Beta Israel), formerly known as Falasha, most of whom now live in Israel, but it is not known if the practise has persisted following their emigration to Israel

As the FGC rituals predated the missionaries work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of tradition, despite their religious conversion. In primarily Christian countries (for instance, Ghana), women undergoing circumcision make reference to the practice in the Old Testament, being performed by Abraham's wife, Sarah. However Genesis 17:23-27 only mentions circumcision being performed on male members of the household, and not on Sarah.

In the United States, as recently as 1938, FGC was advocated by some Christian evangelists as a method of preventing masturbation. As one Methodist preacher prescribed: "While incest and illicit commerce of the sexes is abominable, there is another even more so--if that be possible--that is, the heinous sin of self-pollution or masturbation.... In some cases where there may be impingment of the clitoris, a slight operation may be necessary to relieve the tension and irritation...."

In some areas of Africa, there exists the belief that a newborn child has elements of both sexes. In the male body the foreskin of the penis is considered to be the female element. In the female body the clitoris is considered to be the male element. Hence when the adolescent is reaching puberty, these elements are removed to make the indication of sex clearer.

 

[JZ_UK]

Spoiler :

Vaginal penetrative sex would be an altogether unpleasant experience, the cavity opening being scared and fragile, it would be like trying to force jagged glass =/ and... I try to remain as far from crude as possible... the 'other' option is not necessarily going to be all that pleasant as the vagina is damaged and thus the... indirect pressure would not have the same effects as it otherwise would, and of course, if the clitoris has been excised theres no room for manual stimulation.

In short, if there is good sex after cleaving great chunks of the genitals off then... in fact, I struggle to concede such is possible.

Non-genital erogenous contact is a wonderful part of the meal and if it brings pleasure than fabulous... but... literally, preventing all the rest is to destroy the act... - JZ-UK

JZ put the spoil text around it, I'm not gonna.

Who's slept with a virgin? Who's a girl and was a virgin? The first time's not very pleasent is it? But as time goes on, it becomes pleasurable. By and large, it's the same concept here, except more drawn out. Djiboutian women like to get jiggy jiggy too. It's just the honeymoon that they really don't like.

With that said, one of the big things that FGM like this can do, is hit certain nerves that CAN for the most part deaden everything. I can't say as I've ever encountered anybody that TOLD me this though. The few Somali women that I've talked to about this have had next to no problems. Today it's also quite common that the husbands will take their wives, or fiance's to the doctor to get the sewing undone in a sterile environment. Then they let the reopening heal before they consumate the marraige.

As for the scar it creates, there's some literature out there that says the scar itself remains sensitive, although not like it originally was of course. In most women it still remains and errogenous zone.

The external part of the clitoris is gone, and I've never come across information on the importance of the internal part of the organ nor have I heard of a method of interacting with it beyond pubic bone massage and that may not even be interacting with it. So the entire world of sensation it bestows is lost.

Now, I have only one area of real scar tissue, I lost a chunk of flesh on my knee to a nasty fall, the knee isn't exactly the most nerve filled part of the body but theres a difference in the feeling when I put my finger on that knee and what it feels like on the other knee... I can only imagine that the massively nerve rich vulva and actual opening are respectively excised and scared by driving thread through them then they do not function as they otherwise would...

Say for argument's sake; if you lost 50% of the feeling in your hand, you'd still have a hand, you could still use it for some tasks (with impaired use, you will need another sense to make sure you're doing what you think you are with it) but you really wouldn't have anything like the range you'd have if you hadn't lost 50% of the feeling.

Its a senseless and brutal act, whether or not women can still get 'some' pleasure out of sex after it is by the by it doesn't effect the nature of the act carried out on them one bit.

"While incest and illicit commerce of the sexes is abominable, there is another even more so--if that be possible--that is, the heinous sin of self-pollution or masturbation.... In some cases where there may be impingment of the clitoris, a slight operation may be necessary to relieve the tension and irritation...."

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid some people who claim to preach divine values are... even if you consider masturbation to be wrong and I refuse to believe it has any moral value positive or negative at all, though it may have a morale value (ho ho, play on words ) how on earth can it be more repugnant than incest (whoes moral right or wrongness I am open to debate on, the most solid secular argument I've seen is eugenic and we don't prevent carriers of genetic diseases reproducing - if they can conceive naturally)? But for Christ sake if its involuntary incest then you're morally bankrupt to suggest masturbation is worse!

 

[Winner]

How intreasting you automatically assume it's an Islamic tradition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Today, it's done primarily in countries with Islamic majority. And as the article you quoted says, it has merged with Islamic tradition to a certain extent.

Anyway, if I am willing to make an exception from my anti-death penalty posture, it's this. I'd execute anyone who committed this torture and jail those who knew about it but didn't inform the authorities.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Today, it's done primarily in countries with Islamic majority. And as the article you quoted says, it has merged with Islamic tradition to a certain extent.

Anyway, if I am willing to make an exception from my anti-death penalty posture, it's this. I'd execute anyone who committed this torture and jail those who knew about it but didn't inform the authorities.

and the United States. See post 18 in this thread.

 

[ArneHD]

It's a big issue here in Norway as girls (especially Somali) are taken to abroad, where the police are powerless.

 

[Merkinball]

How civilized the Islamic tradition is, huh? - Winner

It's not Islamic tradition. It's cultural. Just like the niqab, or hijab. These things existed LONG before Islam ever existed. It just remained apart of the culture, and now is attributed to Islam as a way of bad mouthing Islam. There are plenty of non-Muslim African nations that infibulate their girls too. But you never hear about them. Your notion that this is Islams fault is ridiculous. If this was Islams fault, then the methods would always be the same, the ceremonies for it would be the same, the symbolic reasons for it would be the same. All these things existed before Mohamed was ever born.

Women are supposed to be submissive, in fact like a personal property of the husband. This is just another way how to ensure that. - Winner

You've never been to the middle east or Africa have you? Where's LockesDonkey when you really need him.

The external part of the clitoris is gone, and I've never come across information on the importance of the internal part of the organ nor have I heard of a method of interacting with it beyond pubic bone massage and that may not even be interacting with it. So the entire world of sensation it bestows is lost. - JK

Look for information harder. I'm not going to source anything with innappropriate images on here, but there look up infibulation and Sudan over at Yahoo, and a really interesting study should come up first thing, it goes into this pretty in depth.

 

[Merkinball]

Its a senseless and brutal act, whether or not women can still get 'some' pleasure out of sex after it is by the by it doesn't effect the nature of the act carried out on them one bit. - JZ

According to people who do it, it's not senseless. According to the women who do to their daughters, it's not senseless. Anyhow, I don't agree with the practice, but my main point was that the original article which says outright, "women with no clitoris feel no sexual pleasure" is ridiculously false, and extremely misleading. We'll never make headway with this issue saying it's barbaric. One reason it's done is because anti-western, it's a way of distinguishing oneself from western ways of life and norms (again, largely forwarded by WOMEN.) They don't want their girls to be like western girls. The only way you're going to change minds is to expose the very real health threats that are associated with FGM. And for some reason, that's all missing from the opening piece. It brings with it a risk of infection first and foremost, when girls go through puberty, they get more infections, the risk blood clots increases, it doubles a mothers chance of death at birth. There are HOSTS of health issues that are associated with it, but those are all missing. And to me, it's the health issues, not necessarily the cultural issues that should make this go away.

 

[Winner]

According to people who do it, it's not senseless. According to the women who do to their daughters, it's not senseless.

Yeah, I am sure that all sadistic psychos do what they do for some reason. The point is it is utterly irrelevant what they think, because they have no business doing things to others.

This is a torture, plain a simple.

Anyhow, I don't agree with the practice, but my main point was that the original article which says outright, "women with no clitoris feel no sexual pleasure" is ridiculously false, and extremely misleading.

It's not misleading, even if it is not entirely true. Anyway, that's not the point, as I said, nobody has a right to torture others (except some very extreme circumstances which can be ignored now).

We'll never make headway with this issue saying it's barbaric. One reason it's done is because anti-western, it's a way of distinguishing oneself from western ways of life and norms (again, largely forwarded by WOMEN.)

It IS barbaric. If it wasn't, nothing else would be.

They don't want their girls to be like western girls.

They have no right to decide that. They can teach (brainwash) them as they do it already, but this is worse than rape, it's a sadistical torture which cripples them for their whole life. It can't be tolerated or justified.

The only way you're going to change minds is to expose the very real health threats that are associated with FGM. And for some reason, that's all missing from the opening piece. It brings with it a risk of infection first and foremost, when girls go through puberty, they get more infections, the risk blood clots increases, it doubles a mothers chance of death at birth. There are HOSTS of health issues that are associated with it, but those are all missing. And to me, it's the health issues, not necessarily the cultural issues that should make this go away.

Jesus Christ, they don't care about their health, obviously!

The only thing that can stop this is to ensure all who commit such act will be punished.