[RD] Feminism

[Valka D'Ur]

That's not what men's rights activism is about. It's about real issues that pertain to men that are quite serious.

These issues include:
-bias in family court
-domestic violence/emotional abuse towards men
-false abuse allegations towards men
-mental health issues and suicide
-lack of emotional support for men
-men being treated as "success objects" or "moneymaking objects"
-men being drafted into the military

Granted, all of these have been problems for some men. However, there is a point I would like to make: If men don't want to be drafted into the military, how about just not starting wars?

Contrary to popular belief, it is not about:
-oppressing women
-taking rights away from women
-complaining about privileges for men being taken away

You could have fooled me. You've done little in this thread but complain about privileges for men being taken away.

And guess who some of the most vociferous opponents of women's right to choose are? Men. And a certain former forum member who pontificated on numerous occasions here that any woman who has an abortion for any reason should be executed.

To flip that around, how many women are willing to be the sole breadwinner and provide for their male partners?

Many women already do this.

 

[Akka]

Granted, all of these have been problems for some men. However, there is a point I would like to make: If men don't want to be drafted into the military, how about just not starting wars?

Funny argument. Let's see how it sounds used the other way.

If women don't want to be raped by soldiers, how about just not starting war ?

Ah yeah, it sounds about as r***ed this way too.

I sincerely hope you feel stupid about this one, because you really, really should.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Funny argument. Let's see how it sounds used the other way.

If women don't want to be raped by soldiers, how about just not starting war ?

Ah yeah, it sounds about as r***ed this way too.

I sincerely hope you feel stupid about this one, because you really, really should.

And how many women, compared to men, have gone around starting wars?

Some years ago I knew a woman who witnessed her male relatives being killed and her female relatives being raped, in the Balkan wars. She herself was a child at the time, and I'm reasonably sure that it wasn't the women who started all that.

Take your ridiculous attempt to turn my argument, tie it to a kite, and fly it.

 

[Akka]

And how many women, compared to men, have gone around starting wars?

Women represent more than half of the voter base. If there is a war, it's because they voted for people who decided to wage it, so they have the same responsabilities than men in the situation (if I wanted to be simplistic, I might even point that, being MORE than half the voter base, they have more responsability).

It's convenient to say "it's men fault" when "men" do something bad, and then "it's men that made them do it so it's men's fault" when women do the same, but convenience rarely begets honesty.

Some years ago I knew a woman who witnessed her male relatives being killed and her female relatives being raped, in the Balkan wars. She herself was a child at the time, and I'm reasonably sure that it wasn't the women who started all that.

Yeah, I'm sure it was the fault of her male relatives. They should not have gone around starting wars if they didn't want to get killed !

Take your ridiculous attempt to turn my argument, tie it to a kite, and fly it.

Your argument was disgustingly stupid to begin with. If you prefer to put your head in the sand and pretend it's the evil guy out there who is bad instead of yourself who can't manage to get the idiocy of what you said, feel free, but don't expect reality to cave in because you want it so.

 

[Groff]

These are the redpills, folks. Surely it would be a good use of our time to learn more about how they think.

That's a quote from incels subreddit. A subreddit for involuntary celibates aka people who have views on women that are beyond deranged but still wonder why they can't find a gf/wife. They also hate the ''red pill(ers?)'' and call them normies or blue pill(ers?), since they believe they (incels) are the only ones who can see the truth (about women). They would probably hate you too if they knew you put them in the same boat with the red pills.

 

[W|M]

Women represent more than half of the voter base. If there is a war, it's because they voted for people who decided to wage it, so they have the same responsabilities than men in the situation (if I wanted to be simplistic, I might even point that, being MORE than half the voter base, they have more responsability).

What if all the candidates want to start wars?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Women represent more than half of the voter base. If there is a war, it's because they voted for people who decided to wage it, so they have the same responsabilities than men in the situation (if I wanted to be simplistic, I might even point that, being MORE than half the voter base, they have more responsability).

It's convenient to say "it's men fault" when "men" do something bad, and then "it's men that made them do it so it's men's fault" when women do the same, but convenience rarely begets honesty.

Whut?

Women may make up half (or a smidge more) of the population, but you're quite mistaken in thinking that all of them vote.

Yeah, I'm sure it was the fault of her male relatives. They should not have gone around starting wars if they didn't want to get killed !

Where did I say her male relatives were at fault? Any sensible person would blame the men who killed them. These are ordinary people who were raped and killed. This woman's family were not soldiers, nor were they politicians.

Your argument was disgustingly stupid to begin with. If you prefer to put your head in the sand and pretend it's the evil guy out there who is bad instead of yourself who can't manage to get the idiocy of what you said, feel free, but don't expect reality to cave in because you want it so.

As I said, take your post, tie it to a kite, and fly it. Feel free to go along if you want.

I'm not one who votes for warmongers.

 

[Traitorfish]

Funny argument. Let's see how it sounds used the other way.

If women don't want to be raped by soldiers, how about just not starting war ?

Surely you understand that there's a difference between conscription and war-crimes? I understand the point you're trying to make, but this is just a profoundly thoughtless analogy.

 

[Akka]

Surely you understand that there's a difference between conscription and war-crimes? I understand the point you're trying to make, but this is just a profoundly thoughtless analogy.

Obviously I understand there is a deep difference with both, but it's irrelevant to the point, so I'm not sure you understood it.

Whut?

Women may make up half (or a smidge more) of the population, but you're quite mistaken in thinking that all of them vote.

I fail to see how women not bothering to vote change the point in any way - we're talking about the western world here, and women can vote exactly the same as men.

Where did I say her male relatives were at fault?

Right here :

If men don't want to be drafted into the military, how about just not starting wars?

Any sensible person would blame the men who killed them. These are ordinary people who were raped and killed. This woman's family were not soldiers, nor were they politicians.

Yes, I would blame the perpetrators of the crime rather than "men" at large. You, on the other hand, did just that : "if men don't want the consequences of war, men shouldn't start wars".

As I said, take your post, tie it to a kite, and fly it. Feel free to go along if you want.

I prefer to own you up to what you say, even if you prefer to be selective about it so you can spew dumb one-liners and pretend it's the other guy fault when they show what you said actually means.

I'm not one who votes for warmongers.

Well, in your logic of gender-based responsibility, you are part of the majority and there is warmongers elected so you're responsible regardless.
Isn't blanket collective blaming fun ? I sure could enjoy it a lot, I'm from the minority, I can blame everyone else !

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Obviously I understand there is a deep difference with both, but it's irrelevant to the point, so I'm not sure you understood it.

He understood it very well.

I fail to see how women not bothering to vote change the point in any way - we're talking about the western world here, and women can vote exactly the same as men.

Right here :

If men don't want to be drafted into the military, how about just not starting wars?

Yes, I would blame the perpetrators of the crime rather than "men" at large. You, on the other hand, did just that : "if men don't want the consequences of war, men shouldn't start wars".

The woman's relatives are not the ones who started the war. They are some of that war's many victims.

My point stands: If men don't want to be conscripted, then either don't start a war (if in a position of power) or don't support warmongers. I've fulfilled my part of that: I don't support warmongers, and the only wars I start are in Civ games.

I prefer to own you up to what you say, even if you prefer to be selective about it so you can spew dumb one-liners and pretend it's the other guy fault when they show what you said actually means.

I always take responsibility for my posts. It's not my fault that you can't understand them.

Well, in your logic of gender-based responsibility, you are part of the majority and there is warmongers elected so you're responsible regardless.
Isn't blanket collective blaming fun ? I sure could enjoy it a lot, I'm from the minority, I can blame everyone else !

You have confused me with someone who votes in American elections. I bear ZERO responsibility for how American elections turn out, or what policies they enact. Yes, there are Canadian Prime Ministers who have sent people to war. However, I didn't vote for his party. The party I voted for is generally not in favor of war.

 

[civver_764]

Granted, all of these have been problems for some men. However, there is a point I would like to make: If men don't want to be drafted into the military, how about just not starting wars?

"Men" as a group do not start wars. Certain world leaders start wars. As a man I don't have any more influence over these world leaders than you do. So I don't see your point. How about we just get rid of the draft?

You could have fooled me. You've done little in this thread but complain about privileges for men being taken away.

Lol ok, whatever you say Valka.

And guess who some of the most vociferous opponents of women's right to choose are? Men. And a certain former forum member who pontificated on numerous occasions here that any woman who has an abortion for any reason should be executed.

So because one male forum member was anti-abortion that means that men's rights activism is about taking away abortion rights for women?

Many women already do this.

Cool, that wasn't my point.

 

[JollyRoger]

To me, many MRAs appear to be anti-female, hung up on unobtainable sex, and whiny.

 

[Akka]

He understood it very well.

You on the other hand, seems to constantly miss it, considering you double on your answers to do the exact same thing I pointed, and then quickly get out of the collective blame when it's about you.
Here :

My point stands: If men don't want to be conscripted, then either don't start a war (if in a position of power) or don't support warmongers.

Collective blame based on gender.
And here :

I've fulfilled my part of that: I don't support warmongers, and the only wars I start are in Civ games.

Ooopsie, quickly extract myself from a group and ask to be judged not on my group but on my own personal decision.

Make up your mind, are you going to put the blame on a gender-based collective, or judge people individually ? Because it seems you do each one in turn according to how it's convenient for you, and, surprise surprise, that was exactly what I was pointing.

 

[caketastydelish]

I have personally come to the point where I cannot identify as an MRA for the last word in MRA "activist". I cannot be an activist any longer. I've been rapidly reaching this point within the last year and a half or so. I've had accusations of being a woman beater, rapist, misogynist, and other horrible things.

The truth is, it doesn't matter how reasonable and rational you are. It doesn't matter how many statistics and evidence you bring up, as demonstrated in this very thread as well as tons of other places I've had this discussion. These people are 100% set on not changing their minds, and they won't compromise an inch. In their minds, we're all a bunch of woman haters, and there's not a thing you can do to change it.

I have decided from now on I'll remain quiet when these discussions occur, both online and offline. They say we have 'freedom of speech' in this country but I'm not convinced of that. These people can potentially destroy you. So they have effectively silenced me. But I still can keep my thoughts to myself.

I'll also add the word 'misogynist' means hating women. Someone with political beliefs different than your own doesn't mean they hate women. Me bringing up the vast majority of homicide victims are male, among other things, doesn't mean I hate women. I might as well everyone who disagrees with me is a pedophile.

Whether people can get laid or not, or whatever, shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

To summarize, I am done discussing this. It is a waste of time. These people do nothing but make personal attacks, and in many cases outright threaten you or use violence, as they have before. Just staying quiet is by far the best choice.

 

[Lexicus]

They would probably hate you too if they knew you put them in the same boat with the red pills.

That's ok, I welcome their hatred.

 

[caketastydelish]

The only thing I'll add (not that anyone will listen) is if we can teach men not to rape (which I hope we can) why can't we also teach them not to kill other men? Why are these two mutually exclusive?

 

[Lexicus]

Why are these two mutually exclusive?

Who said they were?

 

[caketastydelish]

JollyRoger and Metalhead, among others. On the other hand, are you really surprised that a pirate wouldn't be concerned with men killing other men?

 

[JollyRoger]

Quote me saying that or retract.

 

[civver_764]

I have personally come to the point where I cannot identify as an MRA for the last word in MRA "activist". I cannot be an activist any longer. I've been rapidly reaching this point within the last year and a half or so. I've had accusations of being a woman beater, rapist, misogynist, and other horrible things.

The truth is, it doesn't matter how reasonable and rational you are. It doesn't matter how many statistics and evidence you bring up, as demonstrated in this very thread as well as tons of other places I've had this discussion. These people are 100% set on not changing their minds, and they won't compromise an inch. In their minds, we're all a bunch of woman haters, and there's not a thing you can do to change it.

I have decided from now on I'll remain quiet when these discussions occur, both online and offline. They say we have 'freedom of speech' in this country but I'm not convinced of that. These people can potentially destroy you. So they have effectively silenced me. But I still can keep my thoughts to myself.

I'll also add the word 'misogynist' means hating women. Someone with political beliefs different than your own doesn't mean they hate women. Me bringing up the vast majority of homicide victims are male, among other things, doesn't mean I hate women. I might as well everyone who disagrees with me is a pedophile.

Whether people can get laid or not, or whatever, shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

To summarize, I am done discussing this. It is a waste of time. These people do nothing but make personal attacks, and in many cases outright threaten you or use violence, as they have before. Just staying quiet is by far the best choice.

It does matter. It's really important to talk about these things. When these people are making personal attacks it just makes them look bad, especially to any neutral people reading this thread. A lot of people have simply never been exposed to this side of the argument before.

The only thing I'll add (not that anyone will listen) is if we can teach men not to rape (which I hope we can) why can't we also teach them not to kill other men? Why are these two mutually exclusive?

I would prefer "teach people not to rape" and "teach people not to kill." Of course, we already do that, those are some of our most basic moral principles.