FfH2 0.30 Balance Issues

[Blakmane]

I mostly agree with what you say, but what i wanted to point out is that it's not CoE which are weak by themselves but the implementation of combat experience and promotions which make them weaker than what they should be........if barbarians would be more than xp farm, Barbarian trait would be a really nice trait, while For the Horde needs some reworking.
Considered that on Marathon speed combat is a lot more important, CoE is probably even weaker at this speed but as i said before it's not due to their design but general game balance.

Yeah, true there. I think it's got to do more with the barbs not being as much of a serious threat as they could be more than anything. Something as simple as a tweak that encourages barbs to form stacks might be appropriate.

On a side note, I've released a very mini mod for those who dislike the declare war mechanic. Now the barbs will declare war based on alignment rather than score.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6290240#post6290240

 

[Grey Fox]

I think the Charm Person spell is a bit too strong for a lvl 1 spell. I think that the success rate should be a bit lower, so that you can't protect yourself from a 20+ unit stack with only 1 adept.

True, it doesn't affect non-living units but they are usually not the majority of early armies.

In a similar fashion I find that the Wind II sorcery spell, push? or whatever it's named is a bit too strong too, since it got 100% success rate. You can totally control the enemies movement with it.

EDIT:
Oh and I'm not sure if this has changed since 0.25 yet, but Heroes need a slightly higher chance in Defending. As it is atm, they can't even be used as stack protectors since they seem to be the last guy to defend.

I've lost entire stacks this way.

 

[onedreamer]

On a competitive game you are not forced to roleplay them but CoE is stronger in early game and you should take advantage of that or you are hurting yourself particularly if you are playing against another human which can benefit from your mistakes; so you are not forced to rush, harass enemy, razing other civs cities, but if you don't do that you are certainly not playing them very well.

The barbarian trait would be really powerful if barbarians would be more dangerous (I admit that at least in my games they are always cannon fodder needed to give experience for my units) and For the Horde is probably one of the best world spell though its not probably well implemented considered that relies too much on what map are u playing and AI don't take advantage of it.

No, you do not have any initial advantage, not anymore. Animals and Giants attack you as anyone else, so you need defense in SP, and you need it anyways in MP. Another player with no barbarian trait has the SAME exact chances to harrass you as you have. But in turn he can research faster in the beginning, and overwhelmingly faster after that. When barbarian orc units start appearing they won't be any nuisance anyways, as you mentioned. The only real advantage of the barbarian trait is late in the game, not early, when the apocalypse knights start to appear. Early on, it is only counter-productive. You don't research and you can't make experience with pansy goblins. For the Horde is also an utmostly uselss spell, I don't know how can you consider having a bunch a units spread and disorganized and unpromoted accross the world "one of the best spells". As I said it would be ok if it had a chance to conver barbarian heroes, but apparently it doesn't.

did you actually play the Clan in 0.30 ?

 

[westamastaflash]

Slave trade has got to be imbalanced. On my current epic game, its 10 gold for 22 hammers. When gold rushing with the button, the ratio is more like 3.5 gold for each 1 hammer. There's no point in me rushing buildings with the button, i'll just trade for 50 slaves for 500 gold and get 1200 hammers.... wonders can be rushed so much faster this way. I don't really see how a good civ can compete with the hammer-generating ability of a money-focused neutral or evil civ.

(my game settings are epic monarch, on nikis-knights map, as the Lanun)

 

[Tobbe_1]

Just playing aroung with the Ljolsalfar: They are just AWESOME at the Moment...

I think it is just TOO much that they can now build ANY improved under woods AND JUNGLE! This means very early Mines, even if there is Forest on them), with another later boost (ancient woods), being able to build gem-mines early under jungle, access to calender-resources like dyes, banana, even if there is jungle on them etc.

Any other civ has to trade produktion for Food (--> mines). But the Ljolsalfar can just build mines on a grassland hill and get 2 food (with ancient forest) and 4 Production. Simply just TOO good...i will continue the test and will try e.g. "Highlands". I am pretty sure that with this combination, the elves will almost outshine the dwarves concerning production, due to their larger an healthier cities...

And in former versions, the Ljolsalfar were quite slow to develop (beeing dependant on cottages, slow workers). But with this new jungle boost, their development should significantly improve...

Last point: A quite strong civ with an awesome world spell. I know the the game is balanced for standard sizes and normal speed...but i just achieved my earliest deity victory...arboria, duell...the treeants killed my oponent in turn 27...

For all other cardtypes: the ljolsalfar should be able to cripple or even eradicate ANY close opponent at almost any time...nobody can withstand an army of treeants by turn 100...i dont see any counter against this.


Furthermore, my elven workers were able to remove jungle just from the beginning, but thats probably a bug, so i will put it there.

I would recommend the follwing things:

I personally think that the Ljolsalfar are quite a strong civ, so the ability to build mines under woods and to build anything under the jungle should be removed.

Further i would tie some worldspells to certain techs (perhaps even if ANYBODY has this tech...) or scale them, e.g. with no tech the march of the trees summons SOME least treeants (about str 5) form SOME (not all, just too much, you never can afford SO many units at this time of the game), with another tech (be it FoL or anything other suitable) you summon some more lesser treeants (about str 7-8) and in the late game (with suitable tech) you have the current effect. This way the Ljolsalfar have some handy extra defenders on their hands, but not THAT EXTREMLY POWERFUL invasion army.

I admit, that this variant makes this worldspell more complicated, but i think it balances the spell quite well...

To add something: it might be an idea to allow GOBLIN/orcish workers to build something under the jungle...

 

[Grey Fox]

I can't see how Treants that last 3 turns and start further than 9 tiles from the enemy can become an invasion army?

 

[Rutee]

Is there a balance reason why Myconids (Khazad Beastmasters) don't start with Subdue Animal/Beast like others?

 

[kevjm]

I'm pretty sure it's not a Bug. He's an Animal Unit, IIRC, vulnerable to Rangers and whatnot. I know his spawned puppies are capturable, never had cause to test the Baron himself, but if he's an Animal Unit, it shouldn't work any different from other Animals; He's just got high Strength.

I don't think it's a bug, but it did finish off that civilisation. Maybe the beast domination shouldn't be permanent? Or maybe only usable against barbarians?

 

[Tobbe_1]

I can't see how Treants that last 3 turns and start further than 9 tiles from the enemy can become an invasion army?

Ok, a part of that army will never see any action...but the treants last 5 turns, so they will actually reach some cities, probably the most well defended enemy garrisions...and for midgame: haste em.

 

[daladinn]

myconids have the spore ability which roots any units in its AOE for 3 turns on a failed save. i did notice a bug with the myconids though , they are "dwarven" but don't seem to be getting the double move in hills.

 

[Blakmane]

CoE have lost their earlygame harrassment advantage because goblins no longer become wolf riders when they kill a wolf. This is the mechanic that made them so powerful earlygame- not the barb trait.

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

Actually, I would much prefer it if mercenary was a promotion rather than a unit. The Hire Mercenary spell should trigger an deal-type event (basically the types of events that the guild makes available randomly should be triggered by the spell instead) allowing you to hire units with the Mercenary promotion (which would allow spreading the guild, and make the units fairly likely to switch sides if defeated) instead of paying a fixed coat for a fixed unit. These could be pretty much any unit available to any civ at its current tech level, meaning you could sometimes hire dwarven siege units or elven archers as mercenaries. Actually, I think it might be better still if the units you could hire were those available to be built in other Guild of the Nine cities. Sometimes they might come with xp or promotions, but at higher cost. This would give you a god reason to spread it to rival civs, despite giving them an advantage too.

I agree with this and it shouldn't be hard, it could be done like it was in Rhyes and fall of civilization.

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

Slave trade seems pretty broken. For 10 gold I get a unit that i can sac for 15 hammers (and theres no stop to the number of slaves i can buy each turn.) So in the end i payed 600 gold for finishing the winter palace instead of the 3600 normal rushing would have cost.

How can i build the smugglers port? We voted for it in the undercouncil (I follow overlords - but it nowhere states that it needs the new evil state religion).

Shouldn't vassals give up their techs? Whats the point of sparing them when they refuse to give techs because I'm there worst enemy...

I think there should be an option the force neutral vassal to join the other council. (So when neutral civ from the overcouncil are vassals to an evil civ they should also switch membership.)

 

[it-ogo]

Council of Esus brought a strong balance change towards religious victory. To pay 25 gold is much easier then to build a sacrificable disciple. And it is not limited with your borders like for the Order. Plus you have no religion penalty with other religions and can support open borders more easily. Plus there is a Troyan Horse for non-open-borders civs. Overall with CoE religious victory now is the easiest one despite of more religions in shadow. Especially with slower speed.

And yes, surprizingly there is no option in trade screen to adopt membership.

 

[Quetz]

Shouldn't vassals give up their techs? Whats the point of sparing them when they refuse to give techs because I'm there worst enemy...

I think there should be an option the force neutral vassal to join the other council. (So when neutral civ from the overcouncil are vassals to an evil civ they should also switch membership.)

agree with both of these.. Actually I find my vassals will never do anything I want, haha

 

[Grey Fox]

Ever since 0.25 the AI have become greedy with resources. If I suggest a resource trade, for example Gold for Wine, they say its not enough and want my only source of Copper, Cows, Wheat, Horses, Silks, and some more resources. But sometimes THEY offer a fair trade, but only if THEY suggest it. And if you happen to negotiate that trade they are back at the 1 for 10 resources trade again.

 

[Broken Hawk]

agree with both of these.. Actually I find my vassals will never do anything I want, haha

The Sidar asked to be my vassal. I gave them techs, resources and spread our common religion to all their cities. This moved them from last place to middle of the pack. Their attitude went from Pleased to Cautious.

 

[TheJopa]

Ever since 0.25 the AI have become greedy with resources. If I suggest a resource trade, for example Gold for Wine, they say its not enough and want my only source of Copper, Cows, Wheat, Horses, Silks, and some more resources. But sometimes THEY offer a fair trade, but only if THEY suggest it. And if you happen to negotiate that trade they are back at the 1 for 10 resources trade again.

I also noticed this. Especially irritating is when you (accidentally?) click negotiate, and the same trade they suggested is not good enough for them.

 

[onedreamer]

This is a problem introduced by BtS patch 3.13. Bhruic patch fixes this, so Kael & C. can look into that and grab the code (the source is available).

Please report it in the bug thread, since it is a bug.

 

[Quetz]

nevermind ^^