FfH2 0.30 Balance Issues

[Sarisin]

In previous versions of FFH2 I always raced to get Feral Bond and bring my good friend the Baron into the world. I loved the game within a game of building up a strong Werewolf army and going after AI civs while leaving my other army at home to defend.

In my first game of .30 I have to say the Werewolf Game has really gone awry.

First, you don't get Werewolves that much anymore. It used to be that lychanthropy would spread almost every time a Werewolf killed another living unit. Now, in my game, it seems like it is more like 1 in 7 conversion rate.

I wouldn't mind this, but...

Every Werewolf except the Baron comes with the Enraged promotion. And, in my game, EVERY damn werewolf over time has turned into a barbarian Werewolf unit. Some Blooded Werewolves turned rather quickly, but even more agonizing was when powerful promoted Greater Werewolves turned and wreaked a little havoc before being killed. Every Werewolf turned! It is frustrating to lose experienced units every time like this.

OK, I know someone will say, just get Law Mana and lay Loyalty on each new Werewolf. Voila, problem solved. However, what if you have no mana nodes (this is mid-late game) and simply cannot get Law Mana? Then, I guess you are screwed and you just have to take the Baron out of the game, right?

But, how about this suggestion...let's go back to the way it was a few versions ago. Don't give every Werewolf the Enraged promotion and for those with it, let it wear off after time. Then, they might stick around awhile. Otherwise, you might just as well make each converted Werewolf a barb unit immediately because that is what they will become in time.

Yes, if you can get Loyalty, fine, but if not, this would make playing with the hairy guys a lot more fun like before.

 

[onedreamer]

I agree. Add to this the fact that the AI Clan always seems to declare war on the barbs for some reason early in the game. This negates the positive part of the Barbarian trait while retaining the negative part. Just a wasted trait IMO.

The biggest problem though is not being able to build libraries and the great library. While it makes sense from a roleplaying point of view, it is strategically too harsh. I mean, this isn't balanced by anything, the barbarian trait is balanced by the -10%. If the Clan would get a (high) number of free military support at least, they could keep their science spending as high as possible.

 

[Rutee]

In previous versions of FFH2 I always raced to get Feral Bond and bring my good friend the Baron into the world. I loved the game within a game of building up a strong Werewolf army and going after AI civs while leaving my other army at home to defend.

In my first game of .30 I have to say the Werewolf Game has really gone awry.

First, you don't get Werewolves that much anymore. It used to be that lychanthropy would spread almost every time a Werewolf killed another living unit. Now, in my game, it seems like it is more like 1 in 7 conversion rate.

I wouldn't mind this, but...

Every Werewolf except the Baron comes with the Enraged promotion. And, in my game, EVERY damn werewolf over time has turned into a barbarian Werewolf unit. Some Blooded Werewolves turned rather quickly, but even more agonizing was when powerful promoted Greater Werewolves turned and wreaked a little havoc before being killed. Every Werewolf turned! It is frustrating to lose experienced units every time like this.

OK, I know someone will say, just get Law Mana and lay Loyalty on each new Werewolf. Voila, problem solved. However, what if you have no mana nodes (this is mid-late game) and simply cannot get Law Mana? Then, I guess you are screwed and you just have to take the Baron out of the game, right?

But, how about this suggestion...let's go back to the way it was a few versions ago. Don't give every Werewolf the Enraged promotion and for those with it, let it wear off after time. Then, they might stick around awhile. Otherwise, you might just as well make each converted Werewolf a barb unit immediately because that is what they will become in time.

Yes, if you can get Loyalty, fine, but if not, this would make playing with the hairy guys a lot more fun like before.

In lieu of a fix (Whether it comes or not doesn't bother me), bring a Ranger with Baron. They start with Subdue Animal and can easily take down Werewolves, so you can get them back.

 

[marioflag]

The biggest problem though is not being able to build libraries and the great library. While it makes sense from a roleplaying point of view, it is strategically too harsh. I mean, this isn't balanced by anything, the barbarian trait is balanced by the -10%. If the Clan would get a (high) number of free military support at least, they could keep their science spending as high as possible.

CoE has a huge early advantage with Barbarian trait and For the Horde, not allowing CoE to build libraries or Great Library is not a great deal because this civ is supposed to be expansionist and aggressive, allowing them to have also well developed cities would in my opinion make them too strong........btw CoE perform really well in all my games.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

The other thing is why does Hyborem enter the world with 400 or more pts. (in my Epic games anyway), while Basium starts at 0? The Infernal often have more pts. than many of the AI civs that have been around since the start of the game. I know pts. don't mean much, but you would think both should start at 0.

Hyborem is often too much of a pansy, probably due to low score when he enters, so I think his score is artificially increased.
Basium has a teammate and warscript to keep him active, so his score is less important.

 

[Darkheart]

I'm playing Svartalfar (raider), Emperor, Marathon, Huge, Raging Barbs, and raced to Way of The Wicked for Slavery. At about turn 250 the raging Barbs started to kick in.

Its now turn 400, Most of my Hunters are 150xp+, Warriors are 100 xp+, Ive built 4 wonders ( with 2 more on the way) and best of all if you can stay 50% ahead of your nearest rival it sems to increase the barb activity

This particular game is possibly an exception as I've got Clan and Dov to the West in an enclosed area (who dont kill barbs) and I've killed 2 civs to the East, thus increasing the catchment area of my training ground. Also Elves have increased mobilty in woods so they can attack and return in the same turn.

It's not an exploit or bug, just the synergy of these factors gives a HUGE production/ XP gain. The nail comes when I cast the world spell and these Hyper units go HN.

Ps Anyone noticed the AI doing silly things like declaring war on other AI's half a continent away?

 

[kevjm]

I managed to steal the baron using the capture animal mechanic with a Satyr, ie I stole the key to the enemy city's defence and used it against them. It seemed far to easy!

Also, overcouncil and guilds seem to almost never give events for me- I'm in about turn 7-800 and have had maybe four events from them. Could this be because I'm playing with no settlers and no city razing? The AC still got up to Armageddon just fine on that setting btw

 

[Broken Hawk]

When I play the Bannor/Order combo I don't find Champions that useful. I much rather build Crusaders and wish I had Pikemen. Eariler, in another thread, I said we'll get used to the change.

 

[onedreamer]

CoE has a huge early advantage with Barbarian trait and For the Horde

what is this HUGE advantage ? For the Horde could resemble to something close to a good advantage if at least it would convert Orthus, but it never does.

not allowing CoE to build libraries or Great Library is not a great deal because this civ is supposed to be expansionist and aggressive

that's kinda the reason why I proposed the free military support. You've got to give them something for what you take away. This is still a strategy game you can't pretend that one plays a game aggressive and expansionist just because the roleplay would want so.

allowing them to have also well developed cities would in my opinion make them too strong........btw CoE perform really well in all my games.

I miss the point of well developed cities, anyways play CoE, especially in a multiplayer game, get your ass kicked from the middle of the game and on and come back to discuss

 

[marioflag]

what is this HUGE advantage ? For the Horde could resemble to something close to a good advantage if at least it would convert Orthus, but it never does.



that's kinda the reason why I proposed the free military support. You've got to give them something for what you take away. This is still a strategy game you can't pretend that one plays a game aggressive and expansionist just because the roleplay would want so.



I miss the point of well developed cities, anyways play CoE, especially in a multiplayer game, get your ass kicked from the middle of the game and on and come back to discuss

On a competitive game you are not forced to roleplay them but CoE is stronger in early game and you should take advantage of that or you are hurting yourself particularly if you are playing against another human which can benefit from your mistakes; so you are not forced to rush, harass enemy, razing other civs cities, but if you don't do that you are certainly not playing them very well.

The barbarian trait would be really powerful if barbarians would be more dangerous (I admit that at least in my games they are always cannon fodder needed to give experience for my units) and For the Horde is probably one of the best world spell though its not probably well implemented considered that relies too much on what map are u playing and AI don't take advantage of it.

To summarize, this civ needs to be played differently from other civs, it's in my opinion the opposite of the Sidar.
If in mid/late game you get your ass kicked by your neighbours because CoE is less competitive at this stage, its probably due to the fact that you didn't raze their cities when you had and you are now paying consequences.
From a flavour perspective they are also perfect, probably they are the best implemented civ in the mod.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I managed to steal the baron using the capture animal mechanic with a Satyr, ie I stole the key to the enemy city's defence and used it against them. It seemed far to easy!

Also, overcouncil and guilds seem to almost never give events for me- I'm in about turn 7-800 and have had maybe four events from them. Could this be because I'm playing with no settlers and no city razing? The AC still got up to Armageddon just fine on that setting btw

That first one sounds like it qualifies as a bug to me, go ahead and post in the bugs thread if you haven't.

 

[Rutee]

That first one sounds like it qualifies as a bug to me, go ahead and post in the bugs thread if you haven't.

I'm pretty sure it's not a Bug. He's an Animal Unit, IIRC, vulnerable to Rangers and whatnot. I know his spawned puppies are capturable, never had cause to test the Baron himself, but if he's an Animal Unit, it shouldn't work any different from other Animals; He's just got high Strength.

 

[Blakmane]

To summarize, this civ needs to be played differently from other civs, it's in my opinion the opposite of the Sidar.
If in mid/late game you get your ass kicked by your neighbours because CoE is less competitive at this stage, its probably due to the fact that you didn't raze their cities when you had and you are now paying consequences.
From a flavour perspective they are also perfect, probably they are the best implemented civ in the mod.

Problem is, peace with barbarians drops your rate of XP acquisition at the start of the game quite dramatically, as you can't rake in the goblin/orc/skeleton kills. This actually hurts your early game, because at the moment even on raging barbs/barbarian world, barbarians are no danger whatsoever- they're just free XP farm. The barbarian trait is MUCH more useful as a lategame trait (IE hyborem) as it lets you take full advantage of the rampaging horsemen and avatar of wrath. Unfortunately the -10% science means you'll have a hard time ever getting to this point.

Personally I think the barbarian trait needs a major reworking. No other trait in the game has a negative effect- I think the 10% science penalty is entirely uncalled for, considering there is no 'extra' bonus to even it out (remember, a trait is supposed to be in the end, a positive bonus. It's not supposed to break even). Also, the breaking of peace when your score reaches a certain amount above is one of the most annoying mechanics in the game, because it forces you to artificially (and un 'roleplayingly') manipulate your and other's scores in order to keep the peace. Also, it's actually punishing you for doing well! Perhaps this could be changed to break the peace if the civ ever changes it's alignment from evil, or something similar.

If you want an example of just how poor the barbarian trait is at the moment, just look at the doviello AI. With charadon, they will often end up at the very bottom of the list, and miles behind in research. However, with mahala they are often one of the most successful civs in the game. This beautifully emphasises how poor this trait really is.

Finally, don't accuse people of just 'not using the right tactics' in multiplayer, especially if you don't play multi yourself. The CoE are commonly considered the worst civ to play in multiplayer- when compared to a calabim farm strat, elohim monkskreig or ljosalfar gilden rush they fall very, very short of the mark.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Whether or not the -10% science is needed depends on your settings, I think. If you have less civs than the recommended amount per map, you can take advantage of the barbarians keeping other's scouts at bay to pick up more huts (or that's the theory, I guess.) If you put extra ais, like I usually do, it doesn't add up for them, I expect.

 

[daladinn]

1 thing i noticed that felt unbalanced, the khazad spell that gives 10g for every mine you control? that is soo weak. now i have not tested it yet to verify that it does not add 10g per turn per mine (which would be broken the other way imho). but if it awards 10g to the coffers per mine then the number needs to be greatly increased to 50g or even 100g to keep it even remotely inline with other world spells.

comparison point. one spell gives a str5 unit for every town or city you control.
a mercenary is a str5 unit that cost 120g
120g per mine could be considered balanced.


on a side note .... the barbarian trait is still VERY strong if played well. its not about early xp its about early cities. and the clan has it even easier with rantine.

try playing raging barbs and/or where the barbs start with cities.

as far as avoiding high point totals with barbs , simple , don't develope culture.

 

[westamastaflash]

Is it just me, or is slave trade just freaking amazing? 10 gold for 10 hammers, anytime I want it? (this is on quick speed, i don't know what the correspoding values are, since I can't stand the the longness of anything slower than quick)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I imagine that slave trade is quite nice, but I dropped and broke my laptop just before patch b fixed that vote, so I don't really know.

I really think that HN units should be able to capture units, at least slaves if not werewolves, speders, etc. (I don't see much of a problem with letting HN units capture units now that mercenaries aren't HN and there isn't a wonder that would give only one civ an advantage. Capturing slaves seems very Esus-appropriate.) It is quite realistic for those capturing slaves not to let you know who they are working for, and would make the Council of Esus "mask" spell and the Svartalfar world spell more useful. (I guess that their slaves would need to be HN units so that the HN capturers aren't identified immediately, but I don't think that would be a problem since they can't attack anyway. Of course, upgrading slaves to Lunatics might be a problem then.)

 

[Sarisin]

In lieu of a fix (Whether it comes or not doesn't bother me), bring a Ranger with Baron. They start with Subdue Animal and can easily take down Werewolves, so you can get them back.

Is this true?

It seems like I have attacked werewolves before with Rangers and they were killed and not subdued.

If it is true, it just seems annoying to have to go through this exercise to get back your units.

I still like my idea better of not giving the Enrage promotion to all werewolves and having the promotion, if received, wear out over time.

 

[Sarisin]

Hyborem is often too much of a pansy, probably due to low score when he enters, so I think his score is artificially increased.
Basium has a teammate and warscript to keep him active, so his score is less important.

It's been mentioned before, and I agree, that having a teammate when you build the Mercurian Gate can be more of a negative than a positive.

The AI of your ally, whether it is the Mercurians or your former civ, is just horrible.

Here are two examples from my current game:

1. My former civ is using some sort of bizarre Bear Strategy where it is capturing every damn Bear on the map - and there are plenty of them. They must have at least 50 Bears driving up Maintenance and causing our 'team' Research to plummet. The Bears are just wandering around not doing anything. I wish I could kill them off.

2. Leaving defense of HIS cities up to me. That's right, he is leaving cities without defenders in favor of leading small groups of Elohim troops out to be slaughtered by stronger enemy units. I have to stick a few Angels in each of his cities or they would be quickly taken.

I agree that score is less important, but I was just wondering why they both don't just start out at Zero.

 

[marioflag]

Problem is, peace with barbarians drops your rate of XP acquisition at the start of the game quite dramatically, as you can't rake in the goblin/orc/skeleton kills. This actually hurts your early game, because at the moment even on raging barbs/barbarian world, barbarians are no danger whatsoever- they're just free XP farm. The barbarian trait is MUCH more useful as a lategame trait (IE hyborem) as it lets you take full advantage of the rampaging horsemen and avatar of wrath. Unfortunately the -10% science means you'll have a hard time ever getting to this point.

Personally I think the barbarian trait needs a major reworking. No other trait in the game has a negative effect- I think the 10% science penalty is entirely uncalled for, considering there is no 'extra' bonus to even it out (remember, a trait is supposed to be in the end, a positive bonus. It's not supposed to break even). Also, the breaking of peace when your score reaches a certain amount above is one of the most annoying mechanics in the game, because it forces you to artificially (and un 'roleplayingly') manipulate your and other's scores in order to keep the peace. Also, it's actually punishing you for doing well! Perhaps this could be changed to break the peace if the civ ever changes it's alignment from evil, or something similar.

If you want an example of just how poor the barbarian trait is at the moment, just look at the doviello AI. With charadon, they will often end up at the very bottom of the list, and miles behind in research. However, with mahala they are often one of the most successful civs in the game. This beautifully emphasises how poor this trait really is.

Finally, don't accuse people of just 'not using the right tactics' in multiplayer, especially if you don't play multi yourself. The CoE are commonly considered the worst civ to play in multiplayer- when compared to a calabim farm strat, elohim monkskreig or ljosalfar gilden rush they fall very, very short of the mark.

I mostly agree with what you say, but what i wanted to point out is that it's not CoE which are weak by themselves but the implementation of combat experience and promotions which make them weaker than what they should be........if barbarians would be more than xp farm, Barbarian trait would be a really nice trait, while For the Horde needs some reworking.
Considered that on Marathon speed combat is a lot more important, CoE is probably even weaker at this speed but as i said before it's not due to their design but general game balance.