pre-release info First Look: Confucius - Discussion

[Henri Christophe]

I'm not understanding one thing in this Civ7;
Confucius is an important philosopher of China but never took a leader spot in China society and just begun to be follow by chineses emperors several years after his death.
So, why Confucius was choiced to be China leader? Is it some new mechanic of this civ?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm not understanding one thing in this Civ7;
Confucius is an important philosopher of China but never took a leader spot in China society and just begun to be follow by chineses emperors several years after his death.
So, why Confucius was choiced to be China leader? Is it some new mechanic of this civ?

1. Technically he's not China leader as leaders are not tied to civs anymore
2. There are 3 china civs and honestly, I can't imagine anyone to better represent all 3

 

[Guandao]

I'm not understanding one thing in this Civ7;
Confucius is an important philosopher of China but never took a leader spot in China society and just begun to be follow by chineses emperors several years after his death.
So, why Confucius was choiced to be China leader? Is it some new mechanic of this civ?

They are diversifying the leaders now (outside of traditional political ones like Kings and Presidents). We have Benjamin Franklin and Confucius in the game now. It's similar to Ara History Untold which has leaders like Sappho and Howard Florey.

 

[Henri Christophe]

There are 3 china civs and honestly, I can't imagine anyone to better represent all 3

I saw one in the internet, the Han. Who is the other two?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I saw one in the internet, the Han. Who is the other two?

Han is for antiquity age, Ming for exploration and Qing (not announced yet but rumored) - for modern. If you haven't yet, you need to read how ages work in Civ7, it's an interesting topic.

 

[Henri Christophe]

As a Chinese historian, I still would like to point out that Guanxi is a word with mostly negative connotations in modern Chinese; it would be better to change to something from the Analects instead. I can live with it, though

关系Guanxi, I know as kind of as network. I'm just HSK3 in chinese...
The book of Confucius I also know as the Analects.

 

[Guandao]

I assume this is because many of the Late Imperial (1368-1911) portraits of Kongzi tend to paint him with rather dark skin.
(And, of course, the skin color of the average Chinese is not necessarily region-coded; plenty of Northerners have dark skin, and plenty of Southerners have lighter skin as well. An IRL friend of mine, who is half-Manchu, half-Northern Han, has the darkest skin tone among the Chinese people I have ever known.)

The most famous, most commonly-reproduced Kongzi portrait, or the Kongzi yanju xiang (Ming dynasty), painted him with relatively dark skin. Compare the skin tone of Kongzi with the background color of the aged xuan paper.
View attachment 704644

Below is another well-known portrait of Kongzi and a portrait of his favorite student, Yan Hui, done by the same artist. This set of half-length portraits was initially hung in the Imperial Palace during Qing times, so the portrayal here is very much an officially agreed version.
Note the very obvious, if not dramatic, difference in skin tone between Kongzi (right) and Yan Hui (left).

View attachment 704643

I would say the FXS art team actually did a tremendously good job of faithfully modeling Kongzi based on the traditional art depictions. It is like Kongzi, who we only knew from the portraits before, now comes to life. His postures and movements are based on traditional salutes as well. (My only nickpick is that Kongzi should be taller, since he was a well-known tall and chunky person, almost like the Dwayne Johnson of his time.)

Very interesting! Now I understand why they chose that skintone for him! My skin can get pretty tanned with enough sunlight, but I like to stay indoors most of the time....

Augustus in the Civ 7 is speaking reconstructed Old Latin rather than Ecclesiastical Latin like all the Roman leaders in Civ 6, so credit where credit is due.


However, I also want to point out that the model of Ashoka in Civ 7 is roughly based on his depiction of the relief from the Sanchi Stupa (in which he is a half-naked man with very simple ornaments) rather than more common portrayals you can find on the internet (in which he dresses like a Delhi Sultanate nobleman). In fact, ARA's Ashoka is basically a stereotypical Indian raja, for that is much more recognizable to a largely western player base.

Then, In this particular case of Ashoka, Civ 7 pivots to more accuracy in favor of (probably?) less readability - and this is where having a historian as an advisor helped (credit to Dr. Andrew Johnson). I would say that when deeper but more accessible info is on hand, such as coming from a historian directly working with them, FXS will not shy away from embracing more accuracy.

The same might be said regarding Chinese-related designs. Kongzi has a very faithful model (to the point that I have seen people calling him "ugly" despite the model fits how Kongzi was usually portrayed), and it is indeed very easy to find the traditional portraits of Kongzi online. But for something like the Han Great Wall, you probably need someone from an academic background to help you - even for most Chinese, they don't really know what a Han Great Wall looked like - and this is where FXS used visuals of the Ming Great Wall instead. Similarly, we also do know what a Han-era ship looks like (there are contemporary ceramic models for ships), but that info is not very easy to find as well (one needs to be aware of the existence of the ceramic models, for instance).

I would still say having a historian helps with representation!

Hopefully this means we might get a historically accurate portrayal of an Aztec tlatoani instead of the feathered monstrosity that is Montezuma....and how about accurate portrayals of ancient/classical Celtic leaders too? No shirtless Ambiorix please.

I saw one in the internet, the Han. Who is the other two?

They mention the Ming in the first look trailers. And leaks suggest the third Chinese Civ is the Qing.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Han is for antiquity age, Ming for exploration and Qing (not announced yet but rumored) - for modern. If you haven't yet, you need to read how ages work in Civ7, it's an interesting topic.

are there some thread in this forum or some youtube video about that?

 

[stealth_nsk]

are there some thread in this forum or some youtube video about that?

I think it's best to start from this

 

[Henri Christophe]

I think it's best to start from this

lol
A civ can become another? And another?
I Mean... I can start as Egypt, go to Zulu and end as Buganda?
I understand it right?

 

[Guandao]

lol
A civ can become another? And another?
I Mean... I can start as Egypt, go to Zulu and end as Buganda?
I understand it right?

Yep they are doing Civ switching similar to Humankind. But only with three Ages (Antiquity, Exploration, Modern).

 

[stealth_nsk]

lol
A civ can become another? And another?
I Mean... I can start as Egypt, go to Zulu and end as Buganda?
I understand it right?

Yes. With some limitations:
1. You could only become civilization of this particular age. No exploration age Rome or antiquity America
2. You need to unlock the civilization. It could be unlocked by:
- Your current civilization choice (historical or regional transition)
- Your leader choice (if you play as Confucius you could always pick the next Ming China regardless of your antiquity civ)
- Your game achievements, i.e. gaining enough horses in antiquity unlocks Mongols for exploration age

 

[AriochIV]

Han and Ming have been confirmed, but I don't think Qing has been officially confirmed yet.

 

[notNamed]

However, I also want to point out that the model of Ashoka in Civ 7 is roughly based on his depiction of the relief from the Sanchi Stupa (in which he is a half-naked man with very simple ornaments) rather than more common portrayals you can find on the internet (in which he dresses like a Delhi Sultanate nobleman). In fact, ARA's Ashoka is basically a stereotypical Indian raja, for that is much more recognizable to a largely western player base.

Then, In this particular case of Ashoka, Civ 7 pivots to more accuracy in favor of (probably?) less readability - and this is where having a historian as an advisor helped (credit to Dr. Andrew Johnson). I would say that when deeper but more accessible info is on hand, such as coming from a historian directly working with them, FXS will not shy away from embracing more accuracy.

I would still say having a historian helps with representation!

Yeah, but Ashoka in particular is also a case of the intentionally inaccurate design in action. While his baseline image of a shirtless man with a specific hairstyle and gemstone ornaments is definitely historically driven, the use of pants, a belt and a clearly oriental (weird) sword are things that I believe A. Johnson wouldn't "miss by accident". At some point their use must have been an informed decision from the design team pushing for a certain balance between history and narratives.

Ditto for the completely white colosseum and roman statues. The aversion to coloring statues is an established practice in historical games and media, but the colosseum in particular was already handled accurately in Civ 6 (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization/images/6/69/Colosseum_in-game_(Civ6).png/revision/latest?cb=20180416015713) while Civ 7 intentionally removes the colors again, possibly to achieve a more easily recognisable look. That's why I think some of the details we're seeing are intentionally wrong rather than the team lacking in the research budget.

 

[Leyrann]

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization/images/6/69/Colosseum_in-game_(Civ6).png/revision/latest?cb=20180416015713)

Your image seems broken.

 

[moysturfurmer]

Your image seems broken.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization/images/6/69/Colosseum_in-game_%28Civ6%29.png

 

[Guandao]

Yeah, but Ashoka in particular is also a case of the intentionally inaccurate design in action. While his baseline image of a shirtless man with a specific hairstyle and gemstone ornaments is definitely historically driven, the use of pants, a belt and a clearly oriental (weird) sword are things that I believe A. Johnson wouldn't "miss by accident". At some point their use must have been an informed decision from the design team pushing for a certain balance between history and narratives.

Ditto for the completely white colosseum and roman statues. The aversion to coloring statues is an established practice in historical games and media, but the colosseum in particular was already handled accurately in Civ 6 (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization/images/6/69/Colosseum_in-game_(Civ6).png/revision/latest?cb=20180416015713) while Civ 7 intentionally removes the colors again, possibly to achieve a more easily recognisable look. That's why I think some of the details we're seeing are intentionally wrong rather than the team lacking in the research budget.

I guess wearing a loincloth would've been more historically accurate for Ashoka?

I remember the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus being less historically accurate looking in Civ6 than in Civ5, probably to distinguish them. They probably wanted to distinguish the Colosseum between different Civ games.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

On accuracy, one might balance (in order):

Faithfulness to what we know (often limited) about the period/leader.
What looks too out of line, or what would be offensive, or what would be visually confusing (the Han Great Wall, for instance, can be a bit underwhelming on-map).
Graphics concerns (clipping, animation - ancient peoples liked their flowing robes, graphics cards like them a bit less)
Things I/we simply didn’t catch (there are some known, and probably many unknown. I’m better the closer we get to modern Southeast Asia, and we also now have two historians on staff, the other of whom is better the closer we get to medieval Scandinavia; we ALSO have another PhD in the department who has her own area of expertise… but a lot more responsibility elsewhere).

 

[moysturfurmer]

On accuracy, one might balance (in order):

Faithfulness to what we know (often limited) about the period/leader.
What looks too out of line, or what would be offensive, or what would be visually confusing (the Han Great Wall, for instance, can be a bit underwhelming on-map).
Graphics concerns (clipping, animation - ancient peoples liked their flowing robes, graphics cards like them a bit less)
Things I/we simply didn’t catch (there are some known, and probably many unknown. I’m better the closer we get to modern Southeast Asia, and we also now have two historians on staff, the other of whom is better the closer we get to medieval Scandinavia; we ALSO have another PhD in the department who has her own area of expertise… but a lot more responsibility elsewhere).

Kalmar Union confirmed?

 

[RedCourtJester]

Yeah, but Ashoka in particular is also a case of the intentionally inaccurate design in action. While his baseline image of a shirtless man with a specific hairstyle and gemstone ornaments is definitely historically driven, the use of pants, a belt and a clearly oriental (weird) sword are things that I believe A. Johnson wouldn't "miss by accident". At some point their use must have been an informed decision from the design team pushing for a certain balance between history and narratives.

Ditto for the completely white colosseum and roman statues. The aversion to coloring statues is an established practice in historical games and media, but the colosseum in particular was already handled accurately in Civ 6 (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/civilization/images/6/69/Colosseum_in-game_(Civ6).png/revision/latest?cb=20180416015713) while Civ 7 intentionally removes the colors again, possibly to achieve a more easily recognisable look. That's why I think some of the details we're seeing are intentionally wrong rather than the team lacking in the research budget.

It's odd, because we see things like buildings getting patina in the modern era, as well as suggestions that wonders like Petra will be losing their color over time. I wonder if this is ultimately planned for all of the antiquity wonders, but hasn't been implemented yet.