Flynn cops a plea

[Timsup2nothin]

If Mueller takes an indictment path (obstruction of justice, money laundering or other criminal acts) rather than an impeachment path, the game will change. Congress need not be involved. But once impeachment comes up, pardons cannot be used. It is a pretty interesting situation.

The constitutional question of whether or not a sitting president can be indicted has yet to be answered. Nixon was listed consistently as an "unindicted coconspirator" to avoid that question, however Nixon faced a congress that was more than willing to impeach so indictment wasn't necessary. It will be interesting to see if Mueller opens that can of worms.

 

[Arakhor]

Aren't some people expecting Trump to try to pardon himself? I'm not sure that he really has any grasp of the legal/political niceties involved.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If his case is a strong one, he just might, knowing that the House will be reluctant to act.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Aren't some people expecting Trump to try to pardon himself? I'm not sure that he really has any grasp of the legal/political niceties involved.

He can't if it is case of impeachment. In an indictment, he would probably try. I think the outcome of that is TBD.

 

[Arakhor]

My mind boggles at how you'd even begin to think that you could pardon yourself and get away with it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Aren't some people expecting Trump to try to pardon himself? I'm not sure that he really has any grasp of the legal/political niceties involved.

Whether the presidential pardon can be extended to the president himself is another constitutional question that has yet to be resolved because it has been successfully avoided. Part of the selection of Gerald Ford, and his approval by congress, was the understanding that he would immediately pardon Nixon if he promoted following a resignation or impeachment. No one would have benefited from putting the recent former president on trial, and everyone knew it. If Trump resigns in disgrace that will be satisfactory. I would expect whoever the next president is will give him a pardon.

The interesting thing will be if D'ump lasts out his first term and is defeated. It will be very hard for a newly elected president to extend him a pardon.

 

[Kozmos]

If Mueller takes an indictment path (obstruction of justice, money laundering or other criminal acts) rather than an impeachment path, the game will change. Congress need not be involved. But once impeachment comes up, pardons cannot be used. It is a pretty interesting situation.

Very Roman situation.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Very Roman situation.

Are you suggesting poison or assassination as a solution?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Are you suggesting poison or assassination as a solution?

Et tu Birdjaguar?

 

[sophie]

An interesting question to me is what happens in the (admittedly very unlikely) event that the Dems snag both the House and the Senate, and Pence and Trump get implicated in this mess. You have a 3(ish) month period between the election and when new reps (including a new Dem Speaker) assume office. Suddenly everything is swapped and the Reps are rushing to get Trump out and put Ryan in while the Dems are trying their darndest to stall the process out until their Speaker can get sworn in.

 

[Birdjaguar]

An interesting question to me is what happens in the (admittedly very unlikely) event that the Dems snag both the House and the Senate, and Pence and Trump get implicated in this mess. You have a 3(ish) month period between the election and when new reps (including a new Dem Speaker) assume office. Suddenly everything is swapped and the Reps are rushing to get Trump out and put Ryan in while the Dems are trying their darndest to stall the process out until their Speaker can get sworn in.

Wouldn't that be interesting even if unlikely.

 

[Broken_Erika]

An interesting question to me is what happens in the (admittedly very unlikely) event that the Dems snag both the House and the Senate, and Pence and Trump get implicated in this mess. You have a 3(ish) month period between the election and when new reps (including a new Dem Speaker) assume office. Suddenly everything is swapped and the Reps are rushing to get Trump out and put Ryan in while the Dems are trying their darndest to stall the process out until their Speaker can get sworn in.

I have a feeling that if the Dems snag both the house and senate then all of a sudden the Reps will declare massive voting fraud and attempted an coup by the electorate, nullify the result and postpone all elections until they can eliminate all chances of "voter fraud" (i.e. voting for democrats)

 

[metalhead]

Aren't some people expecting Trump to try to pardon himself? I'm not sure that he really has any grasp of the legal/political niceties involved.

I 100% expect he will try if he ends up in legal jeopardy. Why wouldn't he? He isn't bound by norms or good faith in any other aspect of his life in business or in government, so why the hell would he draw the line here?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Realistically, without congress shifting to Democrat control there will be no action against D'ump. So I'd like to see any action against Pence delayed until the Senate is in Democratic party hands. Pence would be a more dangerous president than D'ump himself, and if the Republicans control the senate and can approve a D'ump appointee it would likely be someone even worse than Pence.

There are two types of danger we have to consider. There is the danger that a competent president with control of congress will pass a bunch of awful bills. Then there is the very real danger Trump will spark WW III with a tweet. As much as I hate the former, I'll take it over the latter.

Aren't some people expecting Trump to try to pardon himself? I'm not sure that he really has any grasp of the legal/political niceties involved.

He floated that idea, yes. He claimed he had total, absolute and unquestionable authority to pardon anyone.

I have a feeling that if the Dems snag both the house and senate then all of a sudden the Reps will declare massive voting fraud and attempted an coup by the electorate, nullify the result and postpone all elections until they can eliminate all chances of "voter fraud" (i.e. voting for democrats)

I do worry about this. Also, if the Republicans lose big, all of a sudden they are going to be railing against Russian influence in our election and on social media and they will use that as a pretext to grab as much power as they can and investigate any and all democrats.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There are two types of danger we have to consider. There is the danger that a competent president with control of congress will pass a bunch of awful bills. Then there is the very real danger Trump will spark WW III with a tweet. As much as I hate the former, I'll take it over the latter.

The danger in the first is already here. Even with the incompetent president, letting the GOP have both houses of congress is leading to a financial restructuring that will be very hard to get undone before the wealthy have looted the country badly enough to warrant just moving on.

As to the latter, in my opinion we are relying on the practical good judgement of Kim Jung Un and other world leaders. Our president is a raving madman, but while our military is nominally under his command they are only bound to follow lawful orders. He is so obviously a lunatic that they will examine his orders very carefully and prevent us from doing anything idiotic. Other countries, including best Korea, are aware that even if they can and do successfully destroy a US city or two it would result in their incineration as a nation. MAD does work.

But this:

I have a feeling that if the Dems snag both the house and senate then all of a sudden the Reps will declare massive voting fraud and attempted an coup by the electorate, nullify the result and postpone all elections until they can eliminate all chances of "voter fraud" (i.e. voting for democrats)

This is the biggest and most real danger. There has already been polling that shows a majority of Republicans would favor postponing an election until "potential voter fraud problems were resolved."

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The danger in the first is already here. Even with the incompetent president, letting the GOP have both houses of congress is leading to a financial restructuring that will be very hard to get undone before the wealthy have looted the country badly enough to warrant just moving on.

Sure, it's happening, but as was shown with ACA, Trump and Co are incompetent enough to prevent the worst from happening. (hey a man can hope!!!)

As to the latter, in my opinion we are relying on the practical good judgement of Kim Jung Un and other world leaders. Our president is a raving madman, but while our military is nominally under his command they are only bound to follow lawful orders. He is so obviously a lunatic that they will examine his orders very carefully and prevent us from doing anything idiotic. Other countries, including best Korea, are aware that even if they can and do successfully destroy a US city or two it would result in their incineration as a nation. MAD does work.

I don't disagree but how many times has the world come to the brink because of simple miscommunication, faulty sensors and freak accidents? All I'm saying is that having a veritable mad man in office makes the chances of an accident or illegal attack go way up.

Remember, Reagan nearly caused WW III by ordering bombers to blitz toward Soviet airspace in mock attacks only to turn back at the last moment. That was a totally legal move and yet seriously stupid. I can't put it past Trump that he would order similarly stupid actions or even borderline illegal ones that the military would faithfully execute.

This is the biggest and most real danger. There has already been polling that shows a majority of Republicans would favor postponing an election until "potential voter fraud problems were resolved."

In that vein, the Republicans floated the idea of postponing the Alabama election so that they could have time to field a winning candidate.

We've already gone through a slow motion coup. The Republicans stole the supreme court, are busy stuffing the courts with their own idealogues after denying Obama the same, they are taking apart the parts of government they don't like or that would restrict them and they've done everything they can to pick their voters through redistricting. They have perfected the legal means of capturing the government and they show no signs of slowing down.

 

[Sommerswerd]

A brilliant plan, except Trump doesn't pay his legal bills

Right, he just uses taxpayer money and campaign donations

I 100% expect he will try if he ends up in legal jeopardy. Why wouldn't he? He isn't bound by norms or good faith in any other aspect of his life in business or in government, so why the hell would he draw the line here?

Nah... why bother with all that... just fire Mueller. Like you said, he isn't bound by any norms.

 

[Gori the Grey]

We've already gone through a slow motion coup. The Republicans stole the supreme court, are busy stuffing the courts with their own idealogues after denying Obama the same, they are taking apart the parts of government they don't like or that would restrict them and they've done everything they can to pick their voters through redistricting. They have perfected the legal means of capturing the government and they show no signs of slowing down.

This is well observed and well-phrased.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I wish I could claim credit for it. Bill Maher used the phrase last year when the Republicans stole Obama's SCOTUS nominee.

 

[metalhead]

Right, he just uses taxpayer money and campaign donations

No, that goes in his pocket

Nah... why bother with all that... just fire Mueller. Like you said, he isn't bound by any norms.

He'll do that too, I am also convinced. Congress may step up on that score though, but even if they don't, the FBI would likely step in now that there is probable cause established for basically everyone who was part of the campaign and transition. Especially since he keeps insulting them

I think this is an idea that made sense a few months ago. It would have hurt him less politically and possibly protected him from the investigation. Possibly. Now that there are indictments and guilty pleas, it will probably just hurt him politically without getting rid of the problem. Of course, it being a terrible idea won't prevent Trump from trying it.