Foreign Aid money used for Popes visit

[markantony]

The Church isn`t rich? You are joking?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

The Church isn't rich, for example in the US the budget was $176 million, which is less than a penny a day per Catholic in the US, yeah that's really rich. Much of the Vatican's budget comes from tourism. Where have you been the last decade if you think that the Catholic Church is currently covering up cases everywhere?

Well let them sell of the billions of priceless dollars worth of artworks then. Als they could cut out a huge load of fat in the organisation from superfluous Cardinals down to superfluous priests.

And the figure for $176m for the US is extremely low for an organisation as large as the Catholic Church. I wouldn't be suprised if this figure did not include, investments, collections and private donations.

Ok did a quick figuring with c. 10 year old numbers for my local parish, and scaled it up to the diocese of Limerick. On average when I was still attending the average mass collection was £3k a week (roughly €3,800 no inflation). This came to £156,000 per annum. Sacle this up to the diocese of Limerick with 60 parishes and you get a £29.5m total church collection (not including gate collections or special fund collections either). And I reckon that this is going to be an underestimate as my home parish was a small rural one with only 2 Friday, 2 Saturday and 3 Sunday masses between 2 churches, the city ones would have taken far larger amounts (John's Cathedral any time I was in there was taking in excess of £10,000). So if the total US budget is less than 6 times the take of one small Irish diocese there are huge and significant amounts left out of what should be in the US budget.

 

[aronnax]

I still don't see the significance of recognising the Holy See as an independent nation and country.

The Holy See is more of a coporate building than a country. It owns no sizable land (being four times smaller than the next smallest state, Monaco) has no real civilian population, no real natural resources, economy, is dependent on foreign donations, an international troll and more.

It is the modern day equivalent of the Imperial Abbeys of the Holy Roman Empire, literally, a building full of Catholic Monks with a vote in the Reichstag.

Nations of the World! Unrecognise this waste of political diplomacy!

 

[ParkCungHee]

no real natural resources, economy, is dependent on foreign donations, an international troll and more.

Why should we recognize most third world countries then?

 

[GamezRule]

They have land and a population. I love how you can take that out of context so fast.

 

[ParkCungHee]

They have land and a population. I love how you can take that out of context so fast.

Not all of them.
At any rate why does that validate them for Diplomatic Recognition?
Why does Economics or Resources for that matter?

 

[Traitorfish]

They have land and a population.

What about somewhere like Tuvalu? It's a string of islands totalling ten square miles, it has a population of less than 11,000, and was owned in its entirety by Britain until 1974. It has almost no resources, and relies almost entirely on foreign aid and the sale of .tv domain names. Why do we recognise that as a state?

 

[ParkCungHee]

What about somewhere like Tuvalu? It's a string of islands totalling ten square miles, it has a population of less than 11,000, and was owned in its entirety by Britain until 1974. It has almost no resources, and relies almost entirely on foreign aid and the sale of .tv domain names. Why do we recognise that as a state?

Incidently, doing some quick math, I found that if you assume the GDP per capita of the Vatican city is exactly the same as the rest of Italy (which is a very generous measure) it still has an economy 2.5 larger then Tuvalu.

 

[civ_king]

The Church isn`t rich? You are joking?

I am not joking

Well let them sell of the billions of priceless dollars worth of artworks then. Als they could cut out a huge load of fat in the organisation from superfluous Cardinals down to superfluous priests.

And the figure for $176m for the US is extremely low for an organisation as large as the Catholic Church. I wouldn't be suprised if this figure did not include, investments, collections and private donations.

Ok did a quick figuring with c. 10 year old numbers for my local parish, and scaled it up to the diocese of Limerick. On average when I was still attending the average mass collection was £3k a week (roughly €3,800 no inflation). This came to £156,000 per annum. Sacle this up to the diocese of Limerick with 60 parishes and you get a £29.5m total church collection (not including gate collections or special fund collections either). And I reckon that this is going to be an underestimate as my home parish was a small rural one with only 2 Friday, 2 Saturday and 3 Sunday masses between 2 churches, the city ones would have taken far larger amounts (John's Cathedral any time I was in there was taking in excess of £10,000). So if the total US budget is less than 6 times the take of one small Irish diocese there are huge and significant amounts left out of what should be in the US budget.

Remember the Church is governed to live in perpetuity selling its heritage to the private sector is not a good idea. The Church has 175 Cardinals and is chronically short of priests, I'm sure there are plenty of excess Cardinals and priests.
That is the national level budget.

I still don't see the significance of recognising the Holy See as an independent nation and country.

The Holy See is more of a corporate building than a country. It owns no sizable land (being four times smaller than the next smallest state, Monaco) has no real civilian population, no real natural resources, economy, is dependent on foreign donations, an international troll and more.

It is the modern day equivalent of the Imperial Abbeys of the Holy Roman Empire, literally, a building full of Catholic Monks with a vote in the Reichstag.

Nations of the World! Unrecognise this waste of political diplomacy!

Vatican City meets all eight criteria for being a country also Vatican City≠Holy See

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I am not joking

Remember the Church is governed to live in perpetuity selling its heritage to the private sector is not a good idea. The Church has 175 Cardinals and is chronically short of priests, I'm sure there are plenty of excess Cardinals and priests.
That is the national level budget.

Vatican City meets all eight criteria for being a country also Vatican City≠Holy See

Why is it a bad idea to follow the teachings of Jesus? Because in hoarding it's wealth the Church is doing the exact opposite. Get rid of at least half of the Cardinals, they're superfluous except for votes and are mostly elevated for being able to keep secrets. The only reason the Church has too many priests is because it is trying to keep the full medaeval apparatus running without the demand. Close half the parishes, sell the land and amalgamate the rest.

So you admit that the $176m is only a tiny minority of what is spent by the Church in the US, thanks for that.

And the only international recognition the Vatican properly has is the Lateran Treaty negotiated with Mussolini and amended in 1984. It has Papal Nuncios in many countries yes, but they are religious positions mainly, and only fill in as diplomatic missions sporadically.

And anyway I looked up criteria for nationhood and found a list on about.com which seems to be like something you are thinking of:

• Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
• Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
• Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.
• Has the power of social engineering, such as education.
• Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.
• Has a government which provides public services and police power.
• Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.
• Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.

1) We could probably give that, if we accept facts on the ground as recogniton. So one.
2) Maybe, definitely living there, but there are effectively no permanent residents, as they are all Church officials who get moved from place to place depending on orders. And also their citizenship model has no ties to the country, given solely based on working for the Vatican in an official capacity. Sorry I cannot accept this one being met.
3) The economy is run by the Italian government, Italian currency, postal service, etc. It is essentially a captive of the Italian economy, so definitely no.
4) The only education taking place in the Vatican is religious instruction of deacons and priests. This does not count. No.
5) Transport system is Italian, no.
6) See 3 & 5. Again No.
7) Yes. Not that it'd do much good if Italy decided to turf the Church out one day, it's effectively a loaner.
8) Mussolini doesn't count. It has no other external treaties with nations, and does not have membership with the UN. So No.

And of those 8 by far the most important is the last, external recognition. And while the fiction is often maintained that there is recognition, aside from the Kingdom (and later Republic) of Italy no state has ever given full diplomatic recognition in modern times to the Holy See.

So in conclusion, I would have to say it occupies the same status as the Knights of St. John of Malta, it has some external diplomatic relations but these are not enough of themselves to constitute nationhood.

Oh and I shouldn't have to point out to you that "criteria" based on the opinion of one man are not criteria they are "justifications for opinion."

 

[aronnax]

Not all of them.
At any rate why does that validate them for Diplomatic Recognition?
Why does Economics or Resources for that matter?

You do realise that the least populated of aforementioned nations has a population of 333,200 filling cities, towns, villages and what not? Isn't their right to a state a lot more worthwhile than... I don't know, a building of 826 very old men?

What about somewhere like Tuvalu? It's a string of islands totalling ten square miles, it has a population of less than 11,000, and was owned in its entirety by Britain until 1974. It has almost no resources, and relies almost entirely on foreign aid and the sale of .tv domain names. Why do we recognise that as a state?

11,000 people is still more of a society than 826 very old men. 11,000 people with families and children and jobs and school is a society of people. 826 very old men wearing funny clothes and tall hats is a club. I don't see why a very big clubhouse needs to be a country.

Plus there should be a clear division of foreign aid from foreign donations to the Catholic Church. The former helps a nation feed its poor and hungry. The latter... well... what the hell does the Catholic church spend on aside from the expensive and luxurious upkeep of 826 very old men in funny clothes? Campaigns for ignorance?

EDIT: My bad, 246 of the people in the Holy See are workers from Italy, 101 are Swiss Guards and the other 500 are really old men in funny clothes.

 

[ParkCungHee]

3) The economy is run by the Italian government, Italian currency, postal service, etc. It is essentially a captive of the Italian economy, so definitely no.

The Italian Currenncy is run by the greater European Community, which the Italian Economy is also Captive to, so I don't see

4) The only education taking place in the Vatican is religious instruction of deacons and priests. This does not count. No.

Why not? "I don't like it" is not a valid reason.

5) Transport system is Italian, no.

The internal transport system is managed by the country.

6) See 3 & 5. Again No.

The Vatican City opts to use Italian police. Policing power is still held by the Holy See.
[quote7) Yes. Not that it'd do much good if Italy decided to turf the Church out one day, it's effectively a loaner.[/quote]
Same could be said for just about any nation bordering Russia or China, or in the Western Hemisphere.

8) Mussolini doesn't count. It has no other external treaties with nations, and does not have membership with the UN. So No.

Uh, what? First of all, Italy has recognized it well after 1943 (even then I don't see why Mussolini doesn't count), it has UN observer status, and loads of countries have had that (or less), unless you don't want to count Mongolia, the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China, both Koreas, Austria, Switzerland or Ireland.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Observer status is not full status, which is what all the other countries have. What the Vatican has is the right to attend meetings, but not to vote at them, or IIRC talk on a motion while UN is in session.
Unlike the other countries there is no way that the Vatican will ever be afforded more than observer status. I still maintain that it is no more than the Knights of St. John of Malta, an extraterritorial organisation with lands given diplomatic privilege within other nations.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Observer status is not full status, which is what all the other countries have. What the Vatican has is the right to attend meetings, but not to vote at them, or IIRC talk on a motion while UN is in session.

So Palestine is not a country? I guess this means the Republic of China is less than not a country. Same for Native American Nations. And that Ireland sprung into existance in 1955? And that Korea was not a country until 1991? What is Japan spending it's time apologizing for? It's not like they annexed and occupied a real country.

 

[aronnax]

Incidently, doing some quick math, I found that if you assume the GDP per capita of the Vatican city is exactly the same as the rest of Italy (which is a very generous measure) it still has an economy 2.5 larger then Tuvalu.

Don't really know how you got that number but according to the CIA Factbook, the Vatican economy is sustained by "printing; production of coins, medals, postage stamps; mosaics and staff uniforms; worldwide banking and financial activities".

It's basically... a Bank... that dabbles in mosaics.

Gee. The a religious organisation is also a bank? I totally did not see that coming.

also Vatican City≠Holy See

I like to prove people wrong when it doesn't really matter.

It's a sickness.


The Vatican City is a special Institution. Make it like the Knights of Saint John. But not a country.

 

[Traitorfish]

No, he's right. The Vatican City is a state, the Holy See is a religious body- same way that the British state and the British crown are distinct entities. Among other things, the Vatican City only dates back to the 1929 Lateran Treaty, while the Holy See is over eighteen hundred years old. That people get them mixed up is their fault, nobody else's.

 

[aronnax]

The Italian Currenncy is run by the greater European Community, which the Italian Economy is also Captive to, so I don't see

Why not? "I don't like it" is not a valid reason.

There is no society in the Holy See to engineer for.

The internal transport system is managed by the country.

What Internal Transport system??? They have corridors and Garden Paths!!

The Vatican City opts to use Italian police. Policing power is still held by the Holy See.

Same could be said for just about any nation bordering Russia or China, or in the Western Hemisphere.

It's a building! It's just a building! The world has decided by some derange reason to recognise a building as an independent country! Now, if this building was sitting on the world's deposit of gold or something, there's a point to it. But it is just a building! Ruling neither a society or a peoples! To be a citizen, you have to be have a job in the Catholic Church! It's basically a company! And aside from a number of countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America, what government listens to the church? What is the point of having diplomatic relations with a country that cannot do anything nor actually functions as a state!

 

[aronnax]

No, he's right. The Vatican City is a state, the Holy See is a religious body- same way that the British state and the British crown are distinct entities. Among other things, the Vatican City only dates back to the 1929 Lateran Treaty, while the Holy See is over eighteen hundred years old. That people get them mixed up is their fault, nobody else's.

But the Catholic Church does not seperate secular power with religious power. The Vatican City and the Holy See are the same thing. They are represented together. Probably why the official site of the Vatican puts the Holy See as its title and probably why in the UN, they are officially represented by the title the Holy See.

 

[civ_king]

But the Catholic Church does not seperate secular power with religious power. The Vatican City and the Holy See are the same thing. They are represented together. Probably why the official site of the Vatican puts the Holy See as its title and probably why in the UN, they are officially represented by the title the Holy See.

They have different passport systems

 

[ParkCungHee]

There is no society in the Holy See to engineer for.

What is the minimum number of people required for a "society?"

What Internal Transport system??? They have corridors and Garden Paths!!

That run more efficiently than the Italian transport system!

Now, if this building was sitting on the world's deposit of gold or something, there's a point to it.

Why would the existence of a random metal be of more importance than what people decide?

And aside from a number of countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America, what government listens to the church?

A number in Europe.
So, yeah, a bunch of countries in Africa, Asia, Latin America and Europe, that is, most of the world, listen to them. Can Djibouti or Grenada say the same?

What is the point of having diplomatic relations with a country that cannot do anything nor actually functions as a state!

As I said, most third world countries can't either.

Don't really know how you got that number but according to the CIA Factbook, the Vatican economy is sustained by "printing; production of coins, medals, postage stamps; mosaics and staff uniforms; worldwide banking and financial activities".

It was simple. I multiplied the population of the Vatican City by the GDP per capita of the average Italian citizen. The total came to 2.5 times the entire economy of Tuvalu. Unless you have some great indication that people within the Vatican City are significantly more impoverished then outside of it, how they make it is largely unimportant.