I think buddy you forgot the lesson we taught to our enemies in DoE about in-game DPsRemember how easy is to go around such loophole if you have dedicated ally?
Care to explain further? Not everybody here played in DoE, whatever it means
Foreign Policy: Apolyton
- Thread starter talonschild
- Start date
Care to explain further? Not everybody here played in DoE, whatever it means
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
And just as I suspected, 3.2 is worded by RB original. Our Amazonian wording was:
and
where in this letter from RB we find the following :
It does not matter much how this definition went in to our official NAP agreement, maybe even I had put it there worded like this to make it easier for RB to accept. Dont really remember who forged the tect of the agreement. And it does not matters much. But was interested from where this definition came.
and
where in this letter from RB we find the following :
It does not matter much how this definition went in to our official NAP agreement, maybe even I had put it there worded like this to make it easier for RB to accept. Dont really remember who forged the tect of the agreement. And it does not matters much. But was interested from where this definition came.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Another thing to consider is to (DoW SpAp, then) go to RB and tell them we are planning to enter into a DP with Poly. In that letter, we explain to them why we don't think this violates the treaty. That way, we have not actually broken the treaty, but instead just given them an opportunity to try to argue why they think it violates the treaty.
Of course they will be reluctant to do this (argue that we cant make a DP with Poly), because it is basically showing all their cards, ie. admitting that they intend to attack Poly, otherwise why would they care about us having an in-game DP with them? (BTW do we even have the tech needed for in-game DPs? I forget)
So if they do want to argue about it, which they might, then we can tell Poly that we have confirmed RB intends to attack them and decide how best to help them. Meanwhile we can come up with endless arguments to dispute and contradict everything they say about why we cant have a DP with Poly.
I think they will be very reluctant to DoW Poly with this issue unresolved and their collective honor hanging in the balance. So we can probably delay them for a long time while Poly goes into full War footing, whips, drafts, chops, whatever. By the time they give up on debating us Poly will be ready for them. The best part, is that with Poly in full whipping mode, RB will have to do the same to keep pace and they will tank their beautiful GNP, allowing us to take a tech lead.
Thoughts?
MZ had told me they got NAP with RB to t170
5 turns difference in our and their NAP end is nothing we must worry for. No one can use 5 turns to effectively take advantage on someone. Also, MZ is not rookie. He knows how to fight and what is required to secure their team. And Poly will be ready for RB at t170. We must concentrate on our own business
Otherwise the idea of telling someone who we have this worded NAP with, that we are about to sign in-game DP with third party to prevent those 2 declaring war to each-other is good idea and we must keep it in our sleeves.
And yes, making RB keeping at par with whole 3 neighbors in military is the first phase of the plan. Being forced building/whipping/drafting 3x units will slow them down significant, while they will not be able to use this military advantage as they cant just turn around their back to one of the allies and go to kill the other one.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Care to explain further? Not everybody here played in DoE, whatever it means
DoE stands for Destiny of Empires and was an epic 18-players Huge Earth pitboss game played under the Diplo-games rules over Apolyton.
Spoiler :
There in one of the final big actions we have taught our enemies that in-game-DPs are easily to overcome by just asking an allied nation to declare war to one of the DP nations. The DP is triggered, all nations declare war to the original declaring nation and then, seconds after the DP is triggered and already expired, you can declare war to whoever you want from the DP-bind nations without triggering the chain war-declaration by the others
So all we would need to overcome such move from RB (RB using the same tactic against us, ie DPing with SpAp to prevent us from attacking them. ) is to ask for example Poly or CP to declare war to the Spaniards, which will trigger the DP and then we can declare to Spaniards without any problems.
DoE stands for Destiny of Empires and was an epic 18-players Huge Earth pitboss game played under the Diplo-games rules over Apolyton.
Spoiler :
There in one of the final big actions we have taught our enemies that in-game-DPs are easily to overcome by just asking an allied nation to declare war to one of the DP nations. The DP is triggered, all nations declare war to the original declaring nation and then, seconds after the DP is triggered and already expired, you can declare war to whoever you want from the DP-bind nations without triggering the chain war-declaration by the others
So all we would need to overcome such move from RB (RB using the same tactic against us, ie DPing with SpAp to prevent us from attacking them. ) is to ask for example Poly or CP to declare war to the Spaniards, which will trigger the DP and then we can declare to Spaniards without any problems.
2metra, thx for explanation - I did not realize the DP dissolves the moment the war triggered by it starts.
YossarianLives
Deity
Yeah, that's another thing I've just learned from this game. Thanks for explaining that.
Also, thanks for finding the origin of the language of the NAP. Even though I still feel that using a DP to try to prevent a DOW would go against the spirit of our agreement, I feel a little better about it knowing that RB brought it against themselves.
T170 is a perfect end date, though. RB can't move against them because we'll be moving in right afterwards.
Also, thanks for finding the origin of the language of the NAP. Even though I still feel that using a DP to try to prevent a DOW would go against the spirit of our agreement, I feel a little better about it knowing that RB brought it against themselves.
T170 is a perfect end date, though. RB can't move against them because we'll be moving in right afterwards.
We used a pre-attack (DoW) to exhaust a DP, then the secondary attack to sink an newly upgraded enemy fleet of like a dozen or more Destroyers in-port. The pre-attack cancelled the DP, and allowed the secondary attack (consisting of one Infantry) to sink a whole fleet of destroyers right under the nose of several enemy MGs and other soldiersCare to explain further? Not everybody here played in DoE, whatever it means
) The maneuver broke the spirit of the enemy alliance and basically won us the game. Just one example of getting around a DP (Thanks for reminding me of this 2metra... Ah the thrill of Victory
)The very last post in this thread is basically the end of the DoE game. It explains what happened (in story form): http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/196801-Destiny-of-Empires-Diplo-Game-Story-Thread-11-August-2011?p=6038937&viewfull=1#post6038937
This is the actual "last" story thread of the game (the game continued unofficially for a little while after it was over with a few players):http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/197612-Destiny-of-Empires-Diplo-Game-Story-Thread-12-October-2011
BTW if anyone is interested in Diplogames in general, we are playing one right now and there is space for players to join. Here is a link to the Organization thread:http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/198931-Domination-of-Barbarians-Diplo-Game-Organization-Thread
And the latest Story Thread:http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/203035-Domination-of-Barbarians-Diplo-Game-Story-Thread-14-May-2013
If anyone is interested in joining the game, send me a PM.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Last night we discussed 2 very important things with MZ on chat.
One is what RB intends to do with their mass drafted units.
And the other is who will get the GM from Economics.
One is what RB intends to do with their mass drafted units.
And the other is who will get the GM from Economics.
MZprox: heya
Изпратено в 22:38, неделя
2metraninja: hey
MZprox: grats on the engineer, though I guess it was not expected
2metraninja:
we did expected GE of course, just divided on if we want him or not lol
MZprox: thing is i1m worried about Egypt's mass drafting
I don1t think they would break a NAP, but also very unlikely that they would wait 30+ turns from now
2metraninja: we are worried too
one idea which we discussed is they will feed a nation with those units
MZprox: so is there a potential target which they have shorter nap with? Inca, natives?
2metraninja: natives no
Inca, cant be sure
MZprox: Aztec told me that they have asked RB about unit gifting and they said no to that
2metraninja: I still believe Germans will be the first target of united RB + WPC atack
MZprox: that was my guess too
2metraninja: but lately the sentiments in our team are that RB and Inca are BBF
MZprox: and I wantd o suggest that if thi war happens maybe we should act somehow.. making Egypt grab the least amount of cities
by helping wpc for example.. or backstabbing inca..
because we can't save him since we have nap with rb
MZprox: i have no diplo relations with wpc so i thought maybe you can talk to them.. telling them that in current situation if war occurs we would even support them just to make egypt grab less
2metraninja: interesting idea - supporting WPC to deny land to RB
MZprox: i have no better idea at least.
2metraninja: maybe first step could be talking to Germans?
to know if they have NAP with RB?
MZprox: now it seems rb is not even interested getting economics.. they just want a huge army.. and they must be planning using it
I will alter my planned techpath too, to make sure i can draft some janissaries before it's too ate
MZprox: I will try to talk with Inca.. i just want to avoid signing a nap with them
2metraninja:
absolutely
one thing ot4e told me about had pushed me in to the group of those who believe in the RB-DE BBF theory
ot4e said RB chopped some jungle tile for Germans
so Germans can get their Gems after border pop
this is a thing which you do for potential ally
I cant make myself think that RB did that so Germans can mine those and save them the hassle of mining it when they capture this city
MZprox: yes i saw them acting like friends.. but what else explantion is there? Are they gona break a nap and sneak attack the aztec?
2metraninja: Inca?
or RB?
to attack CP?
MZprox: inca alone can't do too much, and rb said they would not support them whil their nap lasts
RB could sneak attack the aztecs, but probably they wouldn't
2metraninja: I think they will not
this drafting, etc was planned
MZprox: other explanation s that they keep building there force force 30 turns then unleash whatever they got then.. but it would damage their economy too much
2metraninja: they switched to Nat for reason
no, something is about to happen and it will happen soon
so, to speak in facts, you dont have NAP only with Inca, right?
are they proposing you a NAP actively?
MZprox: with inca we have it till t150
2metraninja: now is what? t138?
MZprox: they said they would agree to extend it, but then we haven't discussed
2metraninja: 12 turns is OK for drafting/moving units
so, we will need to know if Inca have NAP with RB
any idea how to get that knowledge beside straight forwarded asking them (germans)?
MZprox: not really.. I could ask Rb if they would join us against the inca (just for fun.. to see their answer)
2metraninja:
MZprox: I won't do this.. I think i will go the straight forward way and ask the inca
2metraninja: you have some diplomacy going with them?
MZprox: very rough. i send a letter.. get an answer a week later..
2metraninja: that is still something
better contact than us
but
wouldnt it make too obvious why you ask them about if they have NAP with RB?
MZprox: why does it matter? I can be curious about Rb's possible target
2metraninja: I dont know
woulndt they think you are asking to know if they might get attacked and then not increase NAP with them so you can attack them too?
MZprox: it's possible..
MZprox: you can ask them in an ingame window.. they might answer tothat
2metraninja: yes, I was thinking about similar variant
we are RB neighbor and not Germans, so we might seem less suspicious asking them this and pretending to be more worried about Germans
MZprox: yes
MZprox: i1m also wating an answer fom HRE for two weeks now.. i wanted to sign nap with them..
2metraninja: they do that all the time
we waited month and a half for answer
MZprox: I go to sleep early today so we can talk tomorrow..hopefully we can figure out what RB is up to.. maybe they just went crazy because of losing the taj.. who knows.. we could also talk about the economics buisness some day.. I never made secret that I wanted it, but not sure about you (except that you never said that you don't want hegm
2metraninja:
if I say we dont want it it will be not true
but we will see who can really get it and if you are our best shot at it, we will support you
MZprox: i just hoped you found some other nice target since then
2metraninja: so you are a bit ahead on the road to Econ?
MZprox: Rb is ahead.. but as far as i know you lack paper and edu.. sure you can bulb edu and use that great mechant for an other golden age.. and put every single pop into scientist specialist.. so i can't really tell about your chances
great merchant->engineer
MZprox: ok, really leaving in a few mins. tell your microers to calculate when you would get the gm.. and then we can tell each other.. if it1s the same turn then we will try our cances
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
We need to send to Poly the basic NAP. I changed 3.1 with the better wording. Do anyone have any concerns about it before we send it?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Also, we must push on Poly in preparing army and be ready if it happens that RB and Germans have no NAP. Waiting 3-4 turns after RB (and possibly WPC) declare war to Germans and then hitting Germans will effectively deny RB some 3-4 cities and quite some land. There was idea to gift units to WPC so they can take bigger part of the German land and strengthen relations with them, but now I read our basic NAP agreement and it turns out that we must consult with RB before gifting units to WPC. The questions will be too much and our motives will be really transparent.
As WPC is not in war with RB at the moment we don't need to consult them. Even if RB was in the war with Germans, we could gift units to WPC. The agreement only prohibits gifting units for the team in war with RB. True, gifting units to WPC would make RB's war much less effective, but there is nothing in our deal with RB that prevents us being total douches in the things that we have not written down.
Sneak edit: We could even gift units to Germans before RB declares war on them. We can even march them through RB lands if we think that we can get the units across before DoW.
Sneak edit: We could even gift units to Germans before RB declares war on them. We can even march them through RB lands if we think that we can get the units across before DoW.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Hmmm... I was with the impression the "consulting before gifting" clause was included in our agreement with RB, but it is not. Now when I think of it I think I removed it on purpose just for such cases LOL!
But now, I personally, dont want to put such bad karma on myself by playing that kind of douche
But now, I personally, dont want to put such bad karma on myself by playing that kind of douche
Why do we not just put the following clause:
It seems like there are like 4 different clauses in the treaty that are directed at exactly this, so why not just say it outright rather than leave it up to interpretation which can always be manipulated?
Also, the treaty skips from 2.2 to 2.4. Not a big deal but I just noticed it.
Yeah, we should treat RB with the courtesy they shown usBut now, I personally, dont want to put such bad karma on myself by playing that kind of douche
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Heh, I saw that too now. I missed it somehow.
About in-game-DPs forbidden (LOL, I thought for another meaning), it is very good solution for the DP loopholes (LOL)
But there are other loopholes too I think. We still must leave the "not declare war to the other" part I think.
About in-game-DPs forbidden (LOL, I thought for another meaning), it is very good solution for the DP loopholes (LOL)
But there are other loopholes too I think. We still must leave the "not declare war to the other" part I think.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
MZprox: i have some big dilemma now.. what to do with the gs, when and how go for nationalism.. should i switch only during golden age or between golden ages.. but I will not have too many goldena ge to switch back and forth
2metraninja: have in mind that drafting on Emperor dificulty is somewhat limited
you draft second time and you have red faces
MZprox: fYes I know that.. we lack luxury unfortunately.. our civ just doesn't ahve access to any except incense and the 3 everyone gets.. no gem/ivory sugar spice silk
dye..
MZprox: I have a scenario in mind.. would need about 5-600g loan in 10 turns for a reasonable interest...
MZprox: that is only ofc if we would go for the GM. then the plan would be to not go into GA asap, but get nationalism first so at the end I could revolt back to bureaucracy
2metraninja: that is a good plan
MZprox: since you will have the notre dame maybe we could arrange something if you have excess luxury resources
thing is that if I go nat I will want at least two soldier/city
but many of my cities are at cap already
2metraninja: we have the same considerations
we would love to have 2 drafts per city
but this will require we to have barracks in all our cities and stay in Nat for 10 turns
which automatically doubles our net loss from not running Bureaucracy
MZprox: I will take the unhappy population as necessary loss... even if i have about 2 unhappy ciitzen for 10 turns.. still worth to do it
2metraninja: yes, comparing benefits, 2 pop/city cant produce 1 Jan for 10 turns
This is a chat with MZ from today.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Diplomacy with Apolyton get even more heated over the Economics free GM. Here is what we talked since yesterday with MZ:
MZprox i wanted to speak with you about this economics thing .. because if we would agree that you leave it to us then we would delay it a bit.. that way we would deny science bonus to RB and probably could even get it for ourselves (from feudalism at least)
2metraninja: what are RB teching now?
MZprox feudalism
but probably start the real thing only in the next turn
still collecting money, but put a few hundred overflow in it already
MZprox you know.. if i'd research i could finish feudalim in this turn, but i rather collect money for now
mostly to not make it cheaper for rb
it also means that i1m delaying the closest finish date of econ by one turn
2metraninja: we are postponed Feudalism too
it really depends on us seeing what is our next GP
if we hit again the 10% low odds, we will go for Econ. If we dont, we will not run for Econ and we will support you instead
MZprox and do you know that if you hit that 10% odds how long would it take for you to get econ?
2metraninja:
one good thing which is worth mentioning: RB wants extended NAP with us
this means they are not ready to tackle us at t175
MZprox you are not their target.. never was
2metraninja: yes, but they are not ready to even defend from us
we are not afraid of them at first place, just it is good to know they have some plans which require to be secure from us
and because we are not going to give them this security, they might be forced to change their plans
MZprox it doesn't mean that.. they might defend or not, but in any case it's better to avoid it
2metraninja: no one wants things which will be good for him
MZprox it's normal they don't want war with every neighbour
2metraninja: this is my point
and there I avoided getting NAPs on purpose
where RB wants NAPs
MZprox ok, but this is not you playing against noobs
2metraninja: and if getting NAP with us can mean they will conquer one neighbor with confidence, not getting NAP means they will just not conquer anyone
heheh
yes, I was told lately that I need to raise the level of competition I play against
but I dont choose weak players to play against on purpose
just that is most of the sites and players level unfortunately
MZprox i hope you refuse any nap extension
2metraninja: of course
you know I dont defect from agreements
MZprox rb is not afraid of us, but if all goes as i planned we will ahve aformidable force by t170. of course for this plan to work i need the great merchant... heck I might log in andput my research to 100% and beg inca to support me with money
2metraninja:
MZprox i meant aztey btw.. what answer you got,
2metraninja: very dry one
"Thank you for the warning, we also noticed the RB increase in power."
I have two ways to read this
but I want to hear yours
MZprox they usually answer this way.. i guess they are annoyed because wpc cirppled them
2metraninja: I know that if I was them, I would have been mad at WPC
MZprox i meant they are less interested what happens in his game now. my readings are that either they really don1t care too much anymore, or have their treaties secured.
2metraninja: aha
interesting point about not caring
the second reading seconds my second reading (they have NAP with RB)
but I dont think they really not care about the game. they log in and out, change turnplayers, take the efforts to respond in reasonable time...
this does not looks like "dont care anymore"
maybe sort of fatalism... "we are doomed to die and we know it, so no point in telling it to us every day"
MZprox ok, but does it mean that RB dosn't want war before t170?
or breaking a nap
2metraninja: why they dont want war before t170?
an if Inca have NAP with RB?
MZprox yes
2metraninja:
MZprox I1m not sure either, but if they have then what else can happen?
2metraninja: I still prefer to think RB and WPC will attack Inca in some 10-15 turns
if they have... maybe... RB is just starting to pump their muscles
2metraninja: and you know, they need 10 turns between drafts
to not go in to heavy unhappiness
maybe they really needed Nationalism as economic civic and they are making the most of it by drafting an army, which they will need anyway
MZprox maybe but I think t is unlikely
2metraninja: what is your explanation (besides RB attacking Inca soon)
MZprox i have none yet
MZprox eh you are giving me hard time because of this economics stuff..
MZprox or we just agree that we are racing without outside loans then I won't ask for it either
2metraninja: LOL, you gamble hard
MZprox
MZprox a golden age is too integral thing in my short term plan.
2metraninja:
just you will have to come to a good reasoning with RB why would they support you for Economics instead of taking this themselves
MZprox Rb is not a contender
and they would support me if it means you don't get it
2metraninja: no?
MZprox no
2metraninja: why you think so?
MZprox me and RB is at the same distance. but i have more money in reserve
so i'm at least one turn ahead
I guess no one will lend money to RB
2metraninja:
when we were attacked we asked loan from RB and they just refused us
MZprox if Rb really wanted economics they didn't get HBR, didn't slave this much.. they might be able to produce about 6-700 beakers, but theri maintenance is about 250 gold
2metraninja: on the HBR we are split.
one said they will go HAs to supplement their maces, where I think they will go knights
MZprox they wil lgo for knights for sure, but at the moment they are producing war elephants
2metraninja: oh, their favorite banned WEs
good to know
MZprox at this moment none of us would stand a chance aqgainst them
2metraninja:
MZprox you could draft soem soldiers, but they have the army ready already
2metraninja: we just lost the number 1 military position few turns ago
and they have way bigger population than us
and we are not building units, because we are in Pacifism
MZprox I guess it still costs you some gold.. with the army left from the zulu war
2metraninja:
I lost 2 beers bet on this
MZprox lol man.. you make your team drunk all the time
2metraninja:
MZprox is there a chance that you consult your microing guy and ask him an estimate for the best case scenario for you getting economics?
which doesn't include magically conjuring 1000 gold
2metraninja:
MZprox are you expecting a gm next?
2metraninja: yes
MZprox , but you know sending him a bigger distance gives more money
MZprox and I also guess that gm is not on your "getting economics" plan since not only you would need to get the money you also needed to use it up
and you told me you would go for economics if you get something else.. but then you would have no money
2metraninja: no, no - we counted on GM at very high % but we got GS
now if we get GM at low odds it will be just the same
MZprox ok.. but really.. how would a gm help you in the race? unless you would bulb it into economics which I guess you wouldn1T
2metraninja: GM will help us exactly 1300 gold 3-4 turns after we get him
1300 gold will save us more than 5-6 turns of the Econ date
MZprox 3-4 turns? is rb's capital that close? in anyway I can tell you that even that is too late.. you couldn't use up the money before i get economics
2metraninja: I dont want to go in this kind of over-bargaining
I wanted to give you definite answer, but such answer is impossible without us knowing if we get GM or not
I understand your position very well too - you want to know to rush for it or not.
but we just cant tell yet
what I can tell for sure is we will support you if we are not going to get it for ourselves
which I think is fair
if this will help you decide, I will tell you we have less than 10% chance for a GM
MZprox you can't tell if you get a GM or not, but you could guess your best case scenario for getting it. you know I could help you too by revealing my position so you could plan better
2metraninja: will bring this to our team attention, but cant promise anything specific other than what I had told you.
Caledorn
Emperor
Hm .. I may be misinterpreting this - but I'm surprised it seems MZ is actually threatening with running to RB to get his way ...
What do you intend to follow this up with, 2metra?
What do you intend to follow this up with, 2metra?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
And here is what we spoke with Bistrita last night and today about this case:
2metraninja: we need to tell MZ do we support him for Econ
or we race him
Bistrita: well next turn
at end of this
2metraninja: but if we get GM
Bistrita: our GP will be born
so if its gm
he has a race
2metraninja: will this be enough for us to get Econ before him?
Bistrita: yes
we can land it in rb land
2metraninja: even in PS and whipped down cities to size 2-3?
Bistrita: well will see
but yeah
will do math then
dont want to doit now
and get a scientist
and work for nothing
2metraninja:
Bistrita: already done that once
2metraninja: but he asked politely if we can tell before next turn
Bistrita: i done a big mistake
we could have finished
ND faster
if i would chached to feudalism
silly me
i didnt belived we can get an engineer
i never get those
2metraninja: why feudalism?
MZ said he wont compete with us for ND
he was like: You should have told me last night you will bulb, so I dont waste efforts calculating if I can get ND
Bistrita: well i was chaging
to dont finish a tech
so i mess with rb hackers
2metraninja: but we bulbed Engineering the same turn the GE was born?
Bistrita: nope
we finished machinery that turn
x-(
i know becasue i checked bulb buton and was machinery
started a spy in raj
will finish next turn
2metraninja: ok
this is our first?
Bistrita: yes
2metraninja: just in time
Bistrita: will finish 2 baracks too
exactly
2metraninja: to watch the north front
Bistrita: and will move 3 tiles
2metraninja: heheh, yes
fast one
Bistrita: indeed
i can get one in abyy to
but there we have barack so started a cat
2metraninja: I saw you started preparing builds and whips once we get out of Pacifism
Bistrita: yes
2metraninja: I feel their army is in the north
Bistrita: well lets get one in raj this turn
in abby
so we will ahve 2
it hink its good investment
2metraninja: it is
Bistrita: man i hate french
2metraninja: despite we will need them more for the real war
Bistrita: we relay need gems in 5 turns
2metraninja:
Bistrita: 7 maximum
2metraninja: will push for it tomorrow
but we always have alternative in RB
Bistrita: already hired
2metraninja: we pay 1 gold per city
RB's gems?
Bistrita: lol
no
to rb
2metraninja:
Bistrita: city which are using it
maybe
but then they will want nap
ask freaking french
2metraninja: no, our current NAP secures that we have first dibs at any resource and sets the price
I will ask French first of course
Bistrita: man
whats that hard to response?
we need gems gave a resource
and some gold
phew
2metraninja:
Bistrita: say will exchage maps only if we get the gems
becsue oru maps are more extendet
2metraninja:
Bistrita: and we want an answer quick
to see if we can count on them
or look in another direction
casue we know we need to work toghedr but them not giving an answer we dont know what to belive
2metraninja: I was prefering 10 times to kill them before RB
I dont trust them a
Bistrita: i dont like them
we talk about gems for like 10 turns now
and still nothing
perhaps they want to kill they GM...
2metraninja: hahah
that would be radical
Bistrita: well i am radical if someone pushes to much
like they cant tell
we want 100 gold for gems
or something
2metraninja:
Bistrita: they let us to negociate to our self
2metraninja: hi
MZ is not happy of us wanting to run for Econ
Bistrita: but we dont know if compete yet
Bistrita: man RB are pathetic with theyr proposal for longer Nap
use marble...
how cheap
2metraninja:
and predictable
of course, this is not going to help them
now I remember they wanted 25 turns more NAP for giving us Stone a single turn earlier
when we will build our Epics btw?
starting in some 10-15 turns from now?
we can start Nat Epic even earlier
Bistrita: well after we finish Guilds we can go for aesthetics
and just after banking
Bistrita: if we dont go for economics...
2metraninja: this is in 5-6 turns?
2metraninja: we have 1 turn to finish Feudalism (btw, RB are teching Feudalism right now), 1-2 turns to collect money and 2-3 turns to finish Guilds
then 1 more for aesthetics
2metraninja: MZ said RB build War Elephants
the overly-feared and banned WE
Bistrita: well if we had elephants would had conquered zulu long time ago
Bistrita: i think they should be strenght 7
2metraninja: WEs?
Bistrita: yep
2metraninja: interesting thought
Bistrita: then would be alright
this way are cheaper and beter then maces
you can build a stables for them...
2metraninja: yes, stables are good
for WEs
another good thing about them is they have no good counter when defending
2metraninja: MZ continue insisting on us telling him our best case scenario for Economics
Bistrita: after this turn
2metraninja:
Bistrita: i think we should suport him
but our economy out golden age
an whiping
an ps
will be a wreck man
no more then 120 gold turn
2metraninja: but with such a wrecked economics
how we are even hoping to beat him to Econ?
Bistrita: we dont
2metraninja: is this means we will postopne PS/wipping?
Bistrita: but we can obtain something
2metraninja: what you mean?
Bistrita: some gold from him
because we help
and not compete
2metraninja: he offered interest for us giving him 500-600 gold
Bistrita: how much?
2metraninja: i can ask him
but I am not sure it is a good idea to try to gain much from it
having loyal ally worths way more
Bistrita: well not asking much
but sharing the benefit
because we have a good chanse at it
2metraninja: how much you think "sharing the benefit" means ?
Bistrita: 20-30%
2metraninja: I've said to allies in other games: you get the GM, but then you give us tech with 1.5 times more beakers
Bistrita: of great merchnat
2metraninja: lol, he will never give us 20-30%
will you give it yourself?
Bistrita: well i made once a 50%
but i would
2metraninja: question is will you pay the money?
Bistrita: someone finance me to get tech fatser
yes
2metraninja: hmm
problem is, we already promised to help him if we are not going for it
just as he did by sponsoring us
Bistrita: in condition i know its a race
well thats totaly diferent
2metraninja: normally, I would have been shy to ask even for an interest on my money if he gave it without interest
Bistrita: actualy we postponed our plans alot
to do that
2metraninja: he can say he postponed things too to get Econ
Bistrita: so be it then
i dont care that much if rb gt that
2metraninja: or he may say he is leaving himself vulnerable by not going at gunpowder
hmm.. but why we would give RB 1300 gold?
Bistrita: and they have to tech something which costs
3k
and they not spi
so they cant use free market right away
and if they convert they loose again
250 gold
2metraninja: they were not shy to get anarchy for Nat, what will stop them from getting the hit for FM?
Bistrita: and 140 production
2metraninja: yes
Bistrita: so again
like 500 gold
so from 1300
remanis
2metraninja: but they can use the GM for GA to switch?
Bistrita: 800
gain
for a 3k tech
2metraninja: not only 800 gain
Bistrita: no ty
2metraninja: they dont lose those 3k tech
they have it
Bistrita: with that you can have pp
2metraninja: and FM is investment. it will start repaying
Bistrita: and beeing 3 techs of
rifles
2metraninja: if they aim for rifles, why they build elephants?
Bistrita: because they are not confident in theyr research
and want to conquer someone now
not in 40 turns
2metraninja: if they see MZ going to take the GM, they wont go there
Bistrita: as i said
we played for aliance with taj
we were the only one which could get
but with merchant
dont care
rb can have it
2metraninja: it is not the thing I would be happy to tell MZ
Bistrita: man we would had zulu land by now
whitohu taj
at least some of them
2metraninja: yes, that is true too
but I think we will have it at lesser costs about the same time finish date for conquest
Bistrita: so if he wants help
pay us
when we get taj
we helped him
and cp
and french to have a chanse
we would had it even without taj
2metraninja:
you forget we were on the Taj route way before we asked money from MZ and Ot4e
Bistrita: becasue you decided
dont forget i was against
2metraninja: I had the very same reasons to decide this, but this was my decision. MZ and ot4e dont owe us gratitude for it
Bistrita: actualy they do
even they dont know
2metraninja: and when they decided to help, was because they see things good and they wanted to be good allies and reasonable player
yes, they do
Bistrita: and if you didnt decided last minute we didnt need any help
2metraninja: this might be true too
fact stays they played it right when the situation required it
Bistrita: it is
well we do same now
and truth beeing said
we will not have money
golden age gave us like 120
maybe more
with whip
and no speceists
will be near 100
believe me
2metraninja: yes, I know we wont have much money
but if we dont have much money, I keep wondering how we are going to compete for Econ.
Bistrita: we need to show we can
so we can bargain
2metraninja:
Bistrita: we play first for our civ
2metraninja: yes, he asks for our business-plan
Bistrita: not for others
2metraninja: this is true too
but dont forget we need those allies
we cant win the game ourselves
Bistrita: we need
but they dont need to know our kitchen
2metraninja: my thinking is like this: what 20% of 1300 i.e.260 gold can give me more than the good will and gratitude of my ally?
Bistrita: well business it busines
you can say that in some game you seen a 60-40 split
2metraninja: and relations between partners are very important
Bistrita: even a 50 50
very true this
but becasue friend
you ready
to let to 20%
2metraninja:
and I think we need to bring this to the team for thoughts
Bistrita: yep
you had to know how to bargain
i will get banks later becasue of funding
and will losee hundreds of gold becasue of that
2metraninja: bargaining have other merits too
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