Foreign Policy: Apolyton

[2metraninja]

Hm .. I may be misinterpreting this - but I'm surprised it seems MZ is actually threatening with running to RB to get his way ...

What do you intend to follow this up with, 2metra?

It is not real threat. It is not even much possible case. Why would RB sponsor MZ for him taking the GM they would want themselves? I look at it as business trick: "Make me discount, or I will buy from your competitors down the street around the corner."

 

[Caledorn]

It is not real threat. It is not even much possible case. Why would RB sponsor MZ for him taking the GM they would want themselves? I look at it as business trick: "Make me discount, or I will buy from your competitors down the street around the corner."

Yeah, but if it is a business trick .. At the very least make it sound plausible, no?

 

[2metraninja]

You know - sometimes you throw unbelievable prospect just to make people look at you more carefully. Like when kids fight and one starts: "I will cut your head off!!!" Well, everyone knows he cant be talking serious, but still, somewhere deep in your prehistoric part of the brain there is a red lamp which starts blinking: "Possible danger!!!"

 

[2metraninja]

LOL, MZ is good. That is a player with spirit! I like him LOL:

MZprox: you know I promised my folks that I will get us the gm.. my positions would be weakened seriously if i didn't
2metraninja:
heheh
that is serious consideration
we want allies with stabile internal political situation
MZprox: I decided on rushing it with loans btw. I don't want to take chances..10 % or 5 doesn't matter. I lose some money this way.
2metraninja: what was the other alternative?
I mean other than loans?
MZprox: I mean i probably won't need any loans anyway. That is just for keeping my options open. But i need to build wealth more than i liked
also finishing feudalism in this turn
2metraninja: aha

 

[2metraninja]

And this is the last that we spoke with MZ before he went offline without even saying a word. Typical example of just passively feeding one's fears and they to grow to monsters which make him plays his cards in advance.

2metraninja I have posted already the main considerations for discussion in our forum, should have feedback soon

MZprox ok. I hope they understand that i1m not asking you to abandon econmics so i could get it. I'm trying to convince you that if it get's really serious I will use anything necessary to get it I think i could even make it in 6 turns..een if it means a golden age from my gspy for the last few turns. I just wanted to hear a similar number from you
MZprox so if you can make it in 5 and worth it to you then it's yours I guess.. if it's six for you then we have something to discuss.. . if it's 7 then that is my current schedule. I would prefer to do it in 8
2metraninja I will post those numbers too
MZprox i did not want to post these without you giving me similar numbers

2metraninja heheh, you wanted to see our numbers first
I would have not witheld them from you, just we dont have them
yet

 

[2metraninja]

Now, if we cant beat those dates, or simply dont want to bother beating them, we can tell him it is not required he to be hurry and give RB bonus for their tech by completing Feudalism this turn.

 

[Caledorn]

Now, if we cant beat those dates, or simply dont want to bother beating them, we can tell him it is not required he to be hurry and give RB bonus for their tech by completing Feudalism this turn.

Will giving them this earn us many goodwill points, or is this primarily about who of us can beat RB first? Can we beat those dates only if we get a GM?

 

[vranasm]

considering our score is skyrocketing I would prefer that we would play nice with our future allies

I think with the score growing a lot of the teams will feel that it's our problem to deal with RB...

 

[2metraninja]

My thinking is the same. Money cant buy us allies. Where nice gestures can.

I think we sweat him enough. Lets tell him we leave Econ to him and will even support him with some 100-200 gold without asking for any interest if it fits his plans.

 

[2metraninja]

And yes, with us occupying second place, more and more eyes will start to look at us with suspicion. Lets hope this will change in a while once we start slaving our army - our points will drop significant.

 

[Sommerswerd]

considering our score is skyrocketing I would prefer that we would play nice with our future allies

I think with the score growing a lot of the teams will feel that it's our problem to deal with RB...

This

My thinking is the same. Money cant buy us allies. Where nice gestures can.

I think we sweat him enough. Lets tell him we leave Econ to him and will even support him with some 100-200 gold without asking for any interest if it fits his plans.

This

And yes, with us occupying second place, more and more eyes will start to look at us with suspicion. Lets hope this will change in a while once we start slaving our army - our points will drop significant.

and This...

with all of that.

 

[YossarianLives]

I'm late to the party but I also agree with supporting him and offering money if he needs it. He helped us with Taj and the least we can do is repay the favor with the Econ merchant.

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, it is good that he caught me on chat last night to ask me what we decided and I had told him we wont race him for Economics. He was almost unbelieving and said: "Is this final decision?" and I said "Yes. GM or no GM next turn for us, we are not gonna race you to Econ, and we will even help you with reasonable amount of money.". He was relieved, but a bit reserved. At the end he said: "I still wonder if you could have beat me to it, but it works great that I wont need to hurry it in 6. I wont even not need money if I take it in 7." He thanked us once again and said he wont be much around during the weekend. So he wanted to set that before maybe leaving somewhere?

As interesting side note, Poly had the biggest GNP last turn.

 

[YossarianLives]

Very good. We need to help our alliances grow stronger. After we gobble up the Zulu lands and the other teams help us defeat RB, we're definitely going to need a loyal friend or two as the other teams will see us as the next top dog and start to plot against us.

 

[YossarianLives]

I saw 2metra mention that we gave Poly 40 gold recently, 20 to repay an old loan, and 20 as a new loan to them. Is this all they needed from us for their Econ push? Hopefully, given RB's recent whipping / drafting extravaganza, they should be less of a threat to steal the GM from our ally.

How close is Poly to landing Econ, btw? Have there been any communications with MZprox recently?

 

[2metraninja]

The new 20 gold are to compensate them for us using their 20 gold way longer than agreed initially. Instead of paying interest, I agreed this will be fair - they to use 20 gold from us for the duration of how long we used their 20 gold after the agreed on period of 10 turns passed.

I dont know if they will need more gold, MZ changed info on this few times already. First he said he will need, then he wont, then again he asked if we are sure to give him money and this rinse and repeat he did few times. I asked him few times if he is sure to get that before RB and even pushed a bit by saying we might decide to take it if we think he will lose it, to which he assured me each time he will get that. But few times he told me he changed plans a bit, so it will take him more time, or he cant decide which specific way to take, etc. We cant do much about it right now anyway, so this is best we could do: push him for it and hope and pray

MZ is tricky, we must be careful with him.

 

[2metraninja]

Mz just told me this:

MZ: just having alive chat with rb.. they really want that nap extension at least i had the opportunity to ask them about nap endoings

MZ: Realms: any guesses on who all that CFC drafted/whip pop is for?
somebody is going to experience some pain it seems
én: no idea, bu if you were my neighbour I would want an army too
Realms: haha, fair enough!

and a bit later:

MZ:
if we won1t accept nap extension we both will know what does that mean..
2metra: well, this was to be expected. they expected it at some point
MZ: i'm a bit worried btw givn too much attention to Egypt.. while other nations could grow equally strong.. maya, india or hre comes into my mind
2metra: same which will means when we refuse them extension

2metra: maya and hre worry us too. I could add Ottomans in this list, I see we are lately almost equal points and you keeping the best GNP for some time

MZ: yes, but they have aweakness.. their leader is not always do what is the most logical and can1t get himself plying aggressively enough

 

[2metraninja]

As I said, it happened that the Apolyton mail was different and they did not got our proposal with the NAP agreement until very recently. After reading it, MZ commented: "But this is not a basic NAP. For example the clause where we are supposed not to give money to a nation in war with you. This is over the limit! Not gifting units is OK, but money and information?"

to which I countered:

"To whom we might be in war you want to give money and intelligence information?"

After long, long silence he said: "Nobody, I just wanted to say it is more than a simple NAP"

me: "But of course it is not a basic NAP, we look at your team as an ally."

connected with this, this is what MZ tells me right now:

MZ: like at this point of the game one should have a clear goal wich nation to conquer.. conquer or be conquered..

2metraninja: our general sentiments are that in order to gain competiveness, a nation must look to gain more land at this point.

2metraninja: I already said it few times, but your and CP's NAPs with both French and Germans were surprising to say at least. more like scandalous
but I take it as a way to stay on focus with our main rival at the time, which we agreed to tackle

MZ: growing peacefully always looks easier
2metraninja: same is for RB after they take the whole Inca land
MZ: i had doubts before.. even more recently when i started to build some banks.. i feel i shouln't do it, but i can't stop
2metraninja: you dont really believe you can outtech and outbuild them now, what to speak when they double their land?

MZ: outteching maybe, but we already have below average production..

2metraninja: this now is in the joking circle, but we need to do some serious talking and give some serious oaths that we do intend to fight RB
MZ: yes i agree
2metraninja: if any of us want to have hopes for the win, we must break RB

MZ: we must break them, but I don1t count on an "all the way" war.. i mean we must reduce their power but not going to kill them off completely
that would require too much resources and meanwhile i really need to wory about maya
2metraninja: of course, if we cant kill them off, we will be good only crippling them good
how much easier would have been if you and ot4e did not had NAPs with Maya
we already worry about Maya
they dont give us NAP
I told ot4e that I do insist on us 3 - CP, Poly and CFC sign NAPs as a block
because whoever is with us is OK, but whoever is not with us we must be able to do something about him 3vs1 and not be left 1vs1 while we are supposed to fight RB at the same time

MZ: I pursue a nap treaty with HRE to at least t200.. provided i get asingle word from them already..
the last thing i would want is that they befriend maya

 

[Sommerswerd]

MZ seems to be "fence riding" ... I hate fence riders

 

[2metraninja]

And another chat with MZ:

MZprox: hi
MZprox: I've heard wpc will attack inca too
2metraninja: you heard this from me like 15 turns ago
MZprox: theories are not the same as facts
2metraninja: oh, you have facts better than WPC having long long NAP with RB, no NAP with Inca and are building axes like mad while Rb are preparing to attack Inca?
sarcasm aside, where you got those facts?
MZprox: Inca told me. btw i knew nothing about wpc as I couldn't speak with them yet
inca says it was not even their great general which was gifted to egypt
which is strange because i did not see wpc getting one

MZprox: do you know how long wpc's nap last with Egypt?

2metraninja: hmm, what about GG?
MZprox: it1s about why egypt has heroic epic if they haven't been in battle yet
2metraninja: this one is easy. we have a unit with 10 xp only from barbarians too
level 4 is actually 10xp
gifting such units is forbiden though
MZprox: hmm right, my mistake
2metraninja: and yes, there is no GG born yet in the game
MZprox: inca has one
2metraninja: they do? wow
MZprox: yes
2metraninja: what they did with him?
hopefully joined unit
MZprox: no idea
2metraninja: not to leave settled GG to Rb
MZprox: so do you know anything about WPC's nap with egypt?
2metraninja: only that it was about to expire t160 or t170 and then they signed longer one
Изпратено в 12:59, понеделник
MZprox: while it woulbe nice if wpc would gain the cities instead of RB, I think wpc will be killed of quite soon anyway.. so no realgain
but still somehow it should be avoided that wpc and inca's armies kill each other

2metraninja: this was my idea - to deny RB as much Inca land as possible and thats why I talked to you and to ot4e to not sign NAP with them
and I knew such thing as fighting spirit wont be even relevant, as they are going to be double-ganged

2metraninja: any idea in this regard? how to make germans fight RB and not WPC?
MZprox: i had an idea.. uhm.. asking them not to do it
2metraninja: in such endeavors as gang-banging, normally it is agreed on who gets what
and it does not matter much who captures which city. so actually the real gain will be RB losing some army in the process
MZprox: since city gifting is not allowed speed of capturing cities does matter
2metraninja: well, in this game city gifting is forbiden,
right
but please, dont think that it will be like: whoever gets what, he get rights on it
Incaland is divided already
MZprox: probably.. but wpc will never be a factor
2metraninja: I've been organizing such actions way too many times to not know the inner working
MZprox: it's a dead civ.. almost as dead as the inca
2metraninja: and? what about WPC not being serious factor?
MZprox: I think what they are doing now actually just helps RB.. they are weakening the inca and themselves so they could become the next easy target
they will not gain anything usefull from this war
2metraninja: they will get 3-4 cities, why not
it seems they are not as picky as you
to have great chance taking cities and green land and saying it is not worth the efforts
MZprox: alright alright.. you don't need to remind me of my flaws all the time
2metraninja: first you need to accept and recognize them so I know I am not speaking with someone who will do them again

2metraninja: WPC will be OK with few more cities and long NAP with RB
who will attack WPC?
MZprox: Rb, you, hre.. .. it wil lnot be us for sure
2metraninja:
they will have long long NAP with RB, so it wont be RB
Uciv wont attack anyone, because they are way too inert and they have land to settle and most important, they dont have NAP with RB. how they will dare attacking their war-dogs WPC?
we wont attack WPC, because we will have way bigger problem to deal with - namely sustaining RB's crazy teritory and population boom
you wont attack them as you said.
then I think WPC are perfectly OK
MZprox: finally could speak with hre diplomat.. asked them about our nap offer.. they didn't know where is our civ on the map.. had to log in to check..
our border is like 7-8 tiles from their capital
2metraninja: you must listen more to my judgement on geopolitics in future

2metraninja: if I have a real strength in Civ at all, then this must be understanding geopolitics

MZprox: inca is asking for 650 gold to get feudalism..
I was thinking I would buy some workers from them
it's kinda win-win.. they get money and those workers wouldn1t be RB's
problem is that each turn I delay my research I also lose about 50 gold.. not being in free market

2metraninja: the idea about workers is good one
we can sponsor it for small interest
again win-win situation
you gain money
and we gain money
RB lose workers and you gain workers
MZprox: yes
2metraninja: everyone we care about is happy
MZprox: the only problem is the money put into inca is quite a waste
2metraninja: but you get hammers for them
so not real waste
1:1 gold:hammers is OK deal
MZprox: yes i offered 60g/worker.. see if they accept it
2metraninja: first thing is they must accept they are doomed
I've been there I know that. once you accept you are doomed, the game changes
MZprox: yes. i wrote them a leghty letter explaining that we feel sorry for them, but they are beyond saving..

MZprox: talking about money loan: let's say i'd request about 600 gold to rush for nationalism, paying it back 2 turns after we got it. Would this loan be possible, also how much interest you would think is fair?
we would need this money about 4 turns from now

2metraninja: I need to talk to the guys as you can imagine
how long you will tech nationalism?
MZprox: sure. should be 3-4 turns

MZprox: no need to have a big discussion about this just yet, as my whole plan could change
i mean research plan
2metraninja: it wont be big discussion anyway, we either can or we cant, as we consider you close ally
but why at all you will need Nationalism in such a hurry?
I thought you need theose money to tech to Econ
to switch to FM
MZprox: I want to start my golden age once i have nationalism. and i want that golden age asap.. also want to start drafting asap
2metraninja: and what for?
those hurried drafts?
you feel thretened by someone?
MZprox: sooner goldenage=sooner we get free market. sooner drafting= the unhappyness goes away sooner

MZprox: depending how thing goes in the next few turns I might decide to steal nationalism
2metraninja: I will accept that explanation about drafts for now
MZprox: I1m considering staying in nationalism after the golden age
2metraninja: yes, with these maintenance, it makes sense
pity for you building a whole new palce and moving capitol though
MZprox: yes.. :/
not a complete waste, becuase it's stil la better place for oxford

2metraninja: but OU have nothing to do with being capitol or not if not in Bureau or I am missling something?
MZprox: the palace still has 8 base commerce
2metraninja: ah, yes, small, but still