Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond

[RegentMan]

Well put, Sommers.

 

[vranasm]

there is some ongoing misconception about score being not important.

I think I know from where it comes, but it has no place here, I will try to explain.

Players trying to play Civ IV are usually visitors of S&T subforum. And it's absolutely true that on highest levels of single player play the score is indeed absolutely meaningless basically for first 150 turns of normal play. We talk here about Immortal and Deity level of play and it's basically based on fact that at that level the AI gets so much free stuff in units, techs, land (deity), tech costs, maintenance etc etc, that you indeed can't beat AI in score in first 115 turns (and if you do you have really really good game going).

And thus most strategy articles/tips concentrate on building your own empire ignoring everyone else stand.

Now the trick here is that in MP and Noble-Monarch difficulty levels this doesn't apply at all, since all parties have basically the same starting stuff and the AI didn't get yet big bonuses.
What does it mean is that score starts to be really strong indicator of your position in game since what does score actually means?
It's a mixture of techs, land, pop (and not sure units) and if you look at it objectively all of this indicator actually say something about your position and if you can beat someone else in these categories when you start the same, then indeed you have much stronger game going on.

tLDR: Thus score IS IMPORTANT!

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well said.

 

[Maga_R]

there is some ongoing misconception about score being not important.

I think I know from where it comes, but it has no place here, I will try to explain.

Players trying to play Civ IV are usually visitors of S&T subforum. And it's absolutely true that on highest levels of single player play the score is indeed absolutely meaningless basically for first 150 turns of normal play. We talk here about Immortal and Deity level of play and it's basically based on fact that at that level the AI gets so much free stuff in units, techs, land (deity), tech costs, maintenance etc etc, that you indeed can't beat AI in score in first 115 turns (and if you do you have really really good game going).

And thus most strategy articles/tips concentrate on building your own empire ignoring everyone else stand.

Now the trick here is that in MP and Noble-Monarch difficulty levels this doesn't apply at all, since all parties have basically the same starting stuff and the AI didn't get yet big bonuses.
What does it mean is that score starts to be really strong indicator of your position in game since what does score actually means?
It's a mixture of techs, land, pop (and not sure units) and if you look at it objectively all of this indicator actually say something about your position and if you can beat someone else in these categories when you start the same, then indeed you have much stronger game going on.

tLDR: Thus score IS IMPORTANT!

I generally agree, but I meant for example that RB landed an early Stonehedge so they may have many tiles within their culture that are not in BFC's of their cities etc. Imho wonder score is also a bit inflated, especially for some national or already obsolete wonders, but that is another story And the vassal example I gave is extreme - master is not gaining anything from the vassal - only +1 happy and possibility to ask for one resource only (but city maintenance is much increased ) but half of vassal score for land and population is added to the masters, completely obscuring true worth of the master civ's. That is not RB's case, of course, but just an example for the civ score is imperfect.

And I agree that score is especially misleading early on.

 

[YossarianLives]

I am finally able to log into the game again! I spent a nice long time looking around last night. One thing I noticed was this:

Spoiler :

Notice how our unit named "Matrix i didnt pillage eve" just finished plundering from the village and then hamlet The southern chariot (unnamed) pillaged that town.

Now I have no issues with us pillaging again, but as the RB diplomat, please let me know when we pull this stuff so I can be prepared when Scooter comes complaining! I did tell him in our last chat that we had stopped pillaging (but I was careful to not make any promises about future actions )

Here is a compilation shot of the visible units in this warzone:

Spoiler :

 

[bistrita]

I think we can stop pillaging now, becasue we took revenge for ur knigs dead to eles.This is my opinion.

 

[YossarianLives]

Well, imo we don't "owe" RB anything so if it benefits us (and hurts them) to keep pillaging, then let's keep doing it! The only argument I can really see for stopping is it might make them think that we still want to cooperate with them, but that probably isn't worth the free gold that we get from continuing to pillage.

What does the team think?

 

[Bowsling]

I'd like to continue to pillage, especially around that new city with the floodplain cottages.

 

[2metraninja]

I am divided on the pillaging matter.

40-50 gpt is not bad at all if we can keep those numbers, but, at some point the opportunities will end. So it is not like infinite 40-50 gpt income for us. As we see, RB started to raze almost all German cities and plant their own, which greatly reduces the chance for pillaging having instant culture ring 1.

And then, if we dont piss them off, we might have chance to be left alone to build and defend from French. Just as RB would want to stop for a while and maybe start developing their newly conquered land and not fight for a while. BTW, their army IS monstrous Like 50% stronger than our own. In numbers we never had.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I agree with bistrita. We got our revenge so we can stop pillaging unless it is vital to some other goal.

 

[YossarianLives]

Well if bistrita, 2metra and Sommers all agree that we should stop pillaging, then that is definitely the course we should take. If RB asks about it, I'll they'll them we're done.

 

[Maga_R]

I am divided on the pillaging matter.

40-50 gpt is not bad at all if we can keep those numbers, but, at some point the opportunities will end. So it is not like infinite 40-50 gpt income for us. As we see, RB started to raze almost all German cities and plant their own, which greatly reduces the chance for pillaging having instant culture ring 1.

And then, if we dont piss them off, we might have chance to be left alone to build and defend from French. Just as RB would want to stop for a while and maybe start developing their newly conquered land and not fight for a while. BTW, their army IS monstrous Like 50% stronger than our own. In numbers we never had.

Definitely not a good time to antagonize RB now.

I understand that we did stop pillaging after Scooter brought it up and that Yossarian already told RB he would not do it anymore?

 

[Aivoturso]

IMO, it does not matter if we antagonize RB or not. The real question is that do we still want to try to get NAP with RB. If we do we must stop pillaging. If we do not want NAP, we should continue. If we do not agree on NAP with RB, there will be a war.

I am pretty sure they would attack us anyway instead of CP or Poly just simply because we already are in a war. Unless of course they want to attack CP or Poly on turn 170, 5 turns before our NAP expires. Anyhow, I believe their decision would be based on rational logic instead of their grudge about pillages. If we don't try to get NAP I do not expect it make any political difference whether we pillage or not. Therefore, in this case we should to do everything possible to hurt RB as much as possible before the war breaks out.

 

[Maga_R]

IMO, it does not matter if we antagonize RB or not. The real question is that do we still want to try to get NAP with RB. If we do we must stop pillaging.

That is what I meant. And it seems that the sentiment is shifting in terms of desirability of the war with RB now.

I am pretty sure they would attack us anyway instead of CP or Poly just simply because we already are in a war.

I have always advocated that we talk with our allies first - especially that it seems that it was us who talked them into not extending NAP with RB But our war with CivFr has changed everything. Both OT4E and Mzprox seem very reasonable and not particularly sentimental, I think they also do not want us dead - we will not be an useful ally to CP then and balance of powers, that Mzprox cares about, will be severely disturbed. If our allies (I mean, CP and Poly) would agree to "release" us from the promise not to extend NAP with RB we still have two viable options (assuming RB still interested in NAP with us and did not committed yet to fight us together with CivFr):

* we all (CFC, CP, Poly) extend NAP with RB for the same period and negotiating together

* CP and Poly are trying to convince CivFr to stop war with us, if it is not successful, they are OK with us making short-term NAP with RB. We are aiming for NAP that would allow us to help CP and Poly somehow when attacked by RB.

Anyhow, I believe their decision would be based on rational logic instead of their grudge about pillages.

But I am still hoping the war with RB in the near future can be avoided. In that case, pillaging may be dangerous - it sends a signal "CFC is determined to be our enemy" - and thus is pushing RB into CivFr's embrace. Which is the last thing we want, imho.

 

[Magno_uy]

a war against RB must be avoid at any cost... at least will we are in the "1" of the "2vs1 war"....

 

[bistrita]

Yosa can talk with scooter and say we will not pillage(i think its worth let the peace option avaible) and that we want to gave marble starting at turn 165.Becasue i mad a plan and we can finish heroic epic till then(the last part you don have to tell).

 

[YossarianLives]

What, when did the Marble trade change? You guys aren't making my job easy!

It's a holiday in the states today and Scooter is usually available for chat when he's at work. I'll hit him up tomorrow to let him know about the pillaging and the marble trade. Anything else I should discuss when we chat?

 

[bistrita]

Mine its not easy either at all becasue you see probably 2 war front and economy and marble trade.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yes I agree you have the harder job!

You get us Rifling by T173, I'll make sure RB is ok with whatever it is we need to tell them!

 

[YossarianLives]

2metraninja reminded me of my diplo responsibilities this morning:

2metraninja hey, Vic
we will need you to at least inform RB about the late date of delivery of Marble.
if you cant get Scooter online, send him mail maybe
if it comes to arguments, you can tell we offered them the marble in-game when we felt convenient and since they refused it back then, we have the right to change date now if it serves us better
or you can tell there is not a single marble-powered building they can build at the moment (needs checking), so we feel the delivery is pure mechanic thing without much practical weight and if it is more convenient for us to be a bit late, we see why they must insist
YossarianLives Hey Dimo, how's it going
I should be able to catch scooter on chat today
I was looking for him this weekend but didn't see him
2metraninja hey Vic
I think it is not a big issue
they forgot about it I think
or at least dont care
about marble
they have no use for it
YossarianLives Yeah, I wonder if they forgot about it or just don't care at all right now
2metraninja in both cases I think it wont be a problem to change the date
just to let them know
one more thing
YossarianLives It shouldn't be. They didn't really care when we changed the date before
2metraninja if he mention the French
play it as you want to avoid the matter
they are not sure if this whole war is not a theater played for them
YossarianLives I really wish we knew what the Frenchies were telling them
2metraninja like we pretend to fight, raise hell of an army and then in the decisive moment, we head towards them
YossarianLives But I agree with you, we want them to be guessing about the true reasons for this war
2metraninja no matter what French tell RB
if it is not: "We swear we will be friends and we sign NAP with you", RB will not know if French are true to them or not
YossarianLives Yeah, and right now the French won't even open borders with them
So we should be good
2metraninja ) this can be other game inside a game
to not let us know they work together
but we cant know
and we cant control this
so we worry about things we can change
like make RB believe something between us and French is not logical and it smells like trap
maybe use 2-3 a bit controversial statements about French
or tell him something which is not much possible
to make him suspicious
YossarianLives Something that is not possible?
2metraninja or at least not much possible
like.. I dont know.. like: we think French played in this game only to make themselves name for the next ISDGs - that is why they decided to fight us to death - no one will ever dare to mess with French in future
or some other "sewed with white strings" story
something which will sound like total BS to RB
YossarianLives Ok, I get what you mean
2metraninja and will make them suspect there is something rotten
YossarianLives I think RB will already think anything we tell them is BS
2metraninja hahah
YossarianLives lol
2metraninja then you have easy task
YossarianLives

So I found Scooter for a chat (actually got him logged into our CFC email account and him on the RB email account, and then we switched over to our personal accounts)

Scooter hey
yes, the hangouts thing is odd sometimes
YossarianLives Yeah, no kidding
Scooter so what's up?
YossarianLives Well I noticed last week that our turnplayer pillaged some cottages, so I wanted to talk to you about that
We're all on the same page now that there won't be any more pillaging, so sorry about that
Scooter ah yeah. I decided not to make a fuss about it because we've probably done enough of that already. but stopping is appreciated
I know you've had a few opportunities to do so and haven't, so that has been noticed too
YossarianLives Ok cool.
You've been making some really nice progress over there
Scooter Yeah it's gone pretty smoothly all things considered
CivFr supplied them with war elephants which was annoying at first, but we quickly realized those are easier to kill than longbows
so we cant complain too much
YossarianLives Yeah, even with all their whipping, it's basically free XP for your troops since you have such a big tech edge
Scooter yeah. I do feel bad for their team as it mostly is just them being in a bad position because of the early game WPC attack
they've done a fairly reasonable job of defending with what they have, but you can only do so much
Looks like CivFr didn't take peace huh?
YossarianLives Yeah, we had pegged them as a team to watch out for in the pre-game, but that WPC attack really set them back
I'm just glad the same didn't happen to us when the Spaniards DOW'ed us
Yeah, no peace quite yet...
Their diplo is really lacking.
Oh, before I forget I also needed to talk to you about the Marble trade
Scooter yeah you guys at least had a sizable tech/pop edge over the spanish team.
and yeah, what's up about marble?
YossarianLives Again, I was hoping to get to you earlier. We need to push it back to the T165 date that we had agreed to earlier. Sorry about all the changes, but we've had to really keep our plans fluid the past dozen turns or so
Scooter Okay, that should be fine
YossarianLives Cool, thanks for being understanding
Scooter and I see civfr is still building a little bit of military and definitely skirmishing with you, though not that much. any progress at all or not really? they're super slow to respond if they even do
YossarianLives lol, well you're lucky you're not neighbors with them. The slow response times really make things harder when we're trying to figure out a good border arrangement
We've been trying to get peace with them. I don't know if they're just going with "war to the death" or what at this point. Maybe they're just trying to get a reputation so nobody attacks them in the next ISDG
Scooter (sorry for slow responses, multi-tasking here)
and yeah I'm not sure what the deal is with them. they seem content to just play their own game. they are definitely good at civ, but you need diplo to win a competitive game like this
YossarianLives I guess that aspect is more intimidating for the non-English speaking teams
We didn't have much diplo with the Germans, how were they before you invaded?
Scooter they didn't talk much at all. to be honest, we think that they forgot our NAP ended on T150 until only a few turns before
they met us on like T60 or so and immediately offered us a nap until T150
quite an initial greeting message haha
YossarianLives haha
And they didn't even ask for an extension in exchange for the Marble?
Maybe that's where we're all making our mistake
Scooter well we gave them two happies for that marble so we definitely paid for it
YossarianLives Didn't you have duplicates?
Why didn't you talk to us, we already had an agreement to give you Marble
Scooter we gave them one up front (I can't remember which) and then we temporarily gave them gems and helped them hook up their gems)
YossarianLives I guess that's when you were trying to get the Taj, huh?
Scooter you guys said "no sorry we're busy"
yep yep
YossarianLives And you didn't trust us enough to tell us upfront so we weren't competing? I'm offended!
Scooter we knew you were competing from a mile away
not hard to see a neighbor with a ton of wealth builds trying to get to nationalism as quickly as possible
YossarianLives lol, we needed that to draft our Spanish invasion army
Scooter yes we definitely noticed haha
knew the spanish team was toast when that started happening
YossarianLives Well, we're not getting anything past your C&D. I've followed enough games to know that much
Scooter haha. I dislike c&d and have 0 knowledge of how to do it, but I'm glad a few people understand it
or have the patience for it
YossarianLives Hmm, I think you probably have a little more than 0 knowledge on how to do it. It does take a lot of patience, though. And that's why you specialize, so the sweet talkers can focus on diplomacy and the number crunchers can focus on c&d
Scooter I look at demographic numbers and go "hm those numbers look good/bad/okay" and that's about it
YossarianLives After the game is all over, I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what you knew, when you knew it, and how the hell you figured it out!
Scooter hahah. our threads will take quite awhile to read I imagine. I'm definitely looking forward to reading other teams when its done
though I think we have a lot of game left
so apolyton says there's an agreement in place with a couple teams not to sign NAPs with us so that everyone can be flexible. know anything about that?
YossarianLives haha, I was just going to ask if you're keeping it all in one thread to make it easier to read at the end, but I guess you answered that. Our threads will take forever to get through, and you'll have to wade through a bunch of completely off-topic stuff to get to the good stuff
Scooter yep. it does mean enthusiasm is high which is good
YossarianLives Who are you talking to over there, MZProx? We've also noticed that Poly likes to avoid any concrete agreements to maintain their "flexibility"
Scooter yeah MZ I think is usually the guy
YossarianLives Yeah, but enthusiasm seems to be highest about the latest GoT episode or how to properly label someone from the US, and then sometimes spills over to actual game-related conversation
Scooter hahah that's funny. threadjacks can be interesting
YossarianLives Sometimes I guess. I've had bad experiences...
Scooter I've been playing in PB8 at RB, and our thread has had some ridiculous threadjacks. kinda funny though
intense arguments over fast food chains and whatnot
YossarianLives Oh yeah, I've been reading your PB8 thread religiously
That's how you keep all your lurkers entertained!
Scooter oh cool. I'm always surprised by how many people have read it, mainly because it has a bigger readership than every other game i've played combined
YossarianLives Well, after your big exile, I think that drew a ton of readers in
And just a really great style to read. kudos to you and Pin (and NH and Cyneheard and the rest of your team there)
Scooter it's been fun for sure. I definitely got a little burnt out on it. every turn being a war turn is exhausting, haha
YossarianLives Yeah, I can imagine
I was going to make another attempt for you to rejoin Gillette, but I think you said you're already spoiled in that game
Scooter yeah that game just died for me for a lot of reasons. it was a nice concept, just didnt work
YossarianLives I guess what it comes down to is that most of your games at RB are demo-games to some extent, since you always keep updated spoiler threads and get lots of interaction, either with a teammate or with the lurkers. So a strictly structured demogame isn't really needed
Most of the teams in that game are smaller than the other PB's at this point!
Scooter yeah it's true. after playing a game or two with teammates, it's such a fun way to play
YossarianLives Getting back on topic a little bit... Are you having trouble extending NAPs with any other teams?
Have you guys thought at all about what a NAP with us might look like?
Scooter yeah I mean apolyton isn't super interested, but a quick glance at their power graph suggests there's 0 to be afraid of hah
with you guys - not so sure. the general consensus on our team is we aren't interested in war with you because that would be dumb for both of us, but we aren't super interested in paying for a NAP either
we figure it's not that hard to just park the bulk of our army at your border and defend it. cheaper too
I know a lot of your concern is that we might use a NAP to just run over other neighbors. would you guys be interested in a straight up NAP extension (no payment on it), but with a clause that if one of us starts a war, the other has an "out" on the NAP?
like, let's say we extend T175->T200. but then on T185 we declare on a neighbor and you're afraid we'll run over them. you'd have a window where you would have the choice to cancel and intervene if you felt it necessary
YossarianLives Well that's an interesting idea. I'll have to take it back to the team. Part of the concern is that you'll keep rolling over other teams. The other part is that if you peacefully develop your current lands then nobody can surpass you anyways, especially with your new German lands
Scooter yeah I understand that. but I also figure you guys just added a bunch of nice land too and you'll want to consolidate
I figure if we both had 25T to do that, it might be a lot easier to ascertain what a fair deal is after that
and with the amount/quality of land you grabbed, you're a lot closer to us than maybe previously.
YossarianLives Is this an idea you just had, or have you already discussed it with your team and they would accept it for sure?
Scooter it's an idea we talked about as a team and are generally interested in, but it's not yet a binding offer if that makes sense
but knowing your'e at least interested in discussing it - I'll take it back to them and we'll talk
we have a couple days until we can login anyway
YossarianLives haha, yep
What turn are we at now, 159?
Scooter that sounds right
YossarianLives Or still 158?
Scooter just finished 158
YossarianLives Yeah, lots of time to figure out any details of a potential NAP, also
Scooter yeah and the turn pace is slow so 175 is realistically over a month away
YossarianLives The funny thing is you're not even exagerrating
Scooter i know, it's crazy.
this last turn took what, 5 days?
YossarianLives How much longer do the Germans realistically have in the game? It seems that they're putting up a better fight against WPC than they are against you
Scooter hard to predict for sure since they do still have a godo sized stack left
I don't think super long though. I'm pretty confident they'll be dead before our NAP with you expires
also, did you notice who the new tech leader is?
ottomans just stole 3 very expensive techs from us
YossarianLives Ottomans, that's Poly, right?
Does that make them the tech leader?
I just finally started using our Alphabet info to catch up on who has which tech
I thought CP had the big Espy lead
Scooter yep and yep
yeah it's apolyton
I'm wondering if it was a great spy bomb. haven't confirmed yet, but we can't login right now to confirm it
just going off event log and their massive scoreboard leap to 2nd place
YossarianLives What, they're in second place now?!?!
Oh wow
Scooter yep, crazy right? http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2416
YossarianLives Wouldn't the event log tell us if someone birthed a Great Spy?
Scooter I really don't remember off the top of my head if they've ever gotten one or what. they literally just did this an hour or two ago as you see on civstats so we haven't quite pieced it together yet
anyway, I gotta run. thanks for chatting
YossarianLives Alright, talk to you later
Scooter we'll discuss the NAP thing a little more internally and I'll catch up with you soon

tldr:

• Scooter said he noticed the pillaging, but he fussed about that enough already so wasn't going to mention it again. However, he appreciates that we will no longer be pillaging
• He brags that the War Elephants that the Germans are getting from the French are easier to kill than Longbows so he is happy that is what they're building
• He asks about our war with CivFr, saying that he knows we're still at war with minor skirmishes but no major battles (which I think is wrong, I don't believe there has been a single fight since they razed Nobambo)
• I use 2metra's line about this being a war to the death to establish a rep for the next game
• I switch topics to talk about the Marble trade. Scooter accepted our new date without any problem
• Scooter says they got a NAP with the Germans until T150 in their first message, and then the Germans forgot about the end date until a couple turns before the attack (this must be bs because we were sending the Germans emails warning them about the attack)
• He says Poly told them that several teams have an agreement not to renew NAP's with RB
• I join in, complaining that Poly won't commit to anything with us, either
• Scooter says they're not worried since Poly's power graph is so pitiful, but they do want a NAP with us. They won't pay us anything for it, but they would include a clause where we have the option to void the NAP if they attack any other teams
• He tells me that Poly just stole three techs from them and jumped up to #2 on the scoreboard!