Yes, it seems that they really need the NAP and they are getting desparate. Either they have a greater plan that is dependent on us giving the NAP or they are getting quite scared of their neighbours. Another thing that I read between the lines in this is that they think that they have the best chances to get NAP with us, ATM. Well played, Yossa. I suspect that either they already have given this offer to Poly and they refused, or if we refuse, they'll give the offer to Poly (unless Poly already blew their diplo with a "we are not talking to you" message).
Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond
- Thread starter talonschild
- Start date
This.(Oh yes... I went there... Yes I did)
BTW I also think that RB must be destroyed
RegentMan
Deity
Have we told CP and Apolyton yet? E-mail or chat?
YossarianLives
Deity
As far as I know, we have not.
YossarianLives
Deity
And by the way, go back and read the full post that Sommers just quoted. He called it, start to finish.
RB must be destroyed
RB must be destroyed
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
You think this is generous offer speaking for how they desperate they are because you dont know what they offered CP. Maybe I missed mentioning this as it was refused by CP, but RB offered them 51 units !!! gift if they give them NAP and go after CivFR. This must be their whole current medieval army. Catapults, maces and knights they mentioned. MZ's comment was: I got envious! There is nothing for us!
So they only need this time to get unbeatable. It is now or never. We must destroy them.
Their plan I can tell you right away without being extrasensory or medium or having read their forums. With the lush lush land they have and gotten from Germans, the amount of food they have (they just ran away with like 150 more food than us in this moment, when their new cities are not developed yet) they will need only 30-40 turns before they become unstoppable. This much food will result in economic, production, tech and whatever you want to think about advantage that even coordinated 3vs1 efforts wont be able to overcome. Basically if they get this time, they will be unstoppable and they will simply win the game. RB believe too much in the chess-like approach in civ. In chess, you can win a game even if you get only 1 pawn advantage if you play smart and exchange all other figures. And right now RB have not just 1 pawn advantage. They have like 10 pawns advantage
So they only need this time to get unbeatable. It is now or never. We must destroy them.YossarianLives
Deity
Has there been another 3-way chat between the allies? If so, I'd love to see it. I'm glad we told them about our offer from RB.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Lately we did not chatted 3-way, but I am kept exchanging short chats with both of them and it seems they two chat a lot too. For example, Ot4e agreed to sell MZ their GP, 10 rifles were included in the deal, dont know the rest of the deal details.
YossarianLives
Deity
Well, I dropped the news to Scooter that they're not getting a NAP, GP or no GP. He was less than pleased:
So, I think he may have guilted me into revealing more info than I wanted to, and it this point I think the best diplo course is radio silence.
Scooter:
Hey, you around?
YossarianLives:
Hi Scooter, sorry, just got home
Scooter:
Hey (I'm around, just invisible at the moment)
And no problem. any update on your team's thoughts on our offer?
YossarianLives:
Yeah, we recognized it as a very serious offer and had some back and forth over the weekend. But the end result was the same. Still not enough support to extend the NAP
Scooter:
hah. so what exactly is enough?
I'm beginning to suspect your interest in a NAP isn't very sincere.
YossarianLives:
No, I think at this point we're not going to be able to extend it at all. It's not that our interest isn't sincere. Well, not for everyone on the team. We just don't think that the NAP is in our interest
The GP was very tempting, though
I'm sorry, I know you've put a lot of time in trying to get this deal to go through
Scooter:
so how many cities do you think you'll get out of this?
I"ve put myself in your shoes as best I could
I wouldn't have taken the straight NAP til T200, but I would have jumped at the great person
and the only way you don't take that is if you honestly think you can topple us in a war after t175
doesn't take a wizard to do the math
YossarianLives:
Well, a GP would have been great for us, but you have enough land so that if you can develop peacefully then we lose no matter what. At least, that's what our mathematicians have convinced the team of.
Scooter:
I mean, you guys clearly see the whipping/drafting happening from our western neighbors
and our total lack of economy, which we can't repair while we draft ourselves silly and give our next great person away
so I don't totally buy that
YossarianLives:
Your economy is not lacking, you have the most beakers of anyone
Scooter:
we've been last in GNP out of the contending teams for well over a dozen turns
while everyone was building courthouses, universities, markets, grocers, we were building knights, elephants, barracks, stables, and drafting maces. so that adds up too
Anyway, if you're being totally sincere, I think your mathematicians haven't been paying close enough attention to the beaker/turn situation over the last 20 turns
YossarianLives:
I hear you. But CP can't threaten you now that you have all those units, so if you get a NAP with us, you can build all that missing infra and surge back up in GNP while handily defeating your western neighbor
Scooter:
CP can't by itself, but Apolyton's 20-30 Rifles they have right now sure can, and you know that
you DO know that right??
Anyway, I'm not trying to be overly confrontational, but here's how this process has gone internally for our team
you guys made no offers repeatedly. we finally made multiple offers, you said flat no and refused to counter. every time we come back with a new suggestion you take awhile to talk about it, say no, make no suggestion at what sounds good to you. So to some people on my team - they interpret that as you're just screwing with me. I try to assume the best, but I imagine you can see how things would build
Plus I have been aware for awhile that you, apolyton, and civplayers all agreed together to not extend the NAP with us. The details are hazy, but I know that deal existed. So it makes us suspect you had no interest in actually doing so, and were just fishing
YossarianLives:
I hear what you're saying. I really do hope you're not mad on a personal level. I have to represent what is best for my team in these dealings. I want to try to be as honest as possible without showing all our cards. There have been voices on both sides of the debate. None of our decisions on how to proceed with your team have been unanimous.
Scooter:
Personal, no, you've been totally fine of course. There is a growing suspicion though that Team CFC is choosing to not be totally level with Team RB, which is what I was explaining
YossarianLives:
In all sincerity, if you have to leave your border with us lightly defended to deal with your other neighbors, we want that opportunity to make a move. If we can tie up a significant number of troops on our end to let your neighbors make some ground against you, that works out in our favor, too
Yes, I understand that feeling
Or that suspicion, rather
Scooter:
Well sure, that's your decision to make. But you're selling it purely as opportunism right now, and if a real full blown 3v1 happens, that's an outright lie. And I think we have a lot of reason to be skeptical that you're serious about opportunism when you're clearly headed for cannons
Anyway. If a real concerted 3v1 happens, we'll hold your team responsible for orchestrating it. Not extending the NAP for the purpose of tying down units is a valid strategic choice, even if I think it's the wrong one
YossarianLives:
Ok, I understand what you're saying. Well, we do need to hold some cards close to our chest, so I don't know how much more I can say
Anyways, I have to walk the dog, so I should get going
Scooter:
Yep, I'll let you go. In all sincerity, have a nice day/night (not sure where you are actually!). Hopefully you don't take the less-than-cordial diplo personally when it happens. Just need to communicate my team's feelings completely.
tis all just part of the game and I take nothing personally. which I guess is why they make me do the diplo. hah
So, I think he may have guilted me into revealing more info than I wanted to, and it this point I think the best diplo course is radio silence.
vranasm
Deity
I don't think you reveal anything important... and I think you did great job on the diplo with RB, you had no easy situation because you really had to walk the very thin line and it was very tough.
I agree for the next few turns would be best to not initiate diplomacy with RB, because I am afraid there isn't much to do with them diplomatically.
edit:
just wanted to say that it is really interesting how quickly the situation changed from RB threats of "well come t173 we probably won't give you NAP, buhbah" to "oh please take our NAP for the love of god and take some free stuff with it"
I agree for the next few turns would be best to not initiate diplomacy with RB, because I am afraid there isn't much to do with them diplomatically.
edit:
just wanted to say that it is really interesting how quickly the situation changed from RB threats of "well come t173 we probably won't give you NAP, buhbah" to "oh please take our NAP for the love of god and take some free stuff with it"
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Yes, Scooter did well in putting guilt on you. You did not revealed any sensitive info though, just maybe something semi-untrue like saying we will just want to pull some troops of theirs on our border. Which is not exactly untrue, just not 100% true Anyway, you did it totally OK. I know how it feels being on the front line taking enemy fire and acting under pressure. I will repeat this so you dont have any doubts - you did totally OK and conducted the diplomatic situation great. Next time, to avoid feeling bad or guilty, tell yourself this is a war and you are soldier and you do what is best for your country. Or just remind yourself it is just a game and playing smart politics is part of it. Just as Scooter being harsh and pushing on you is part of this same game.
Don't let Scooter make you feel bad Yossa.
He is just desperate to get what is best for his team. You told him that we were far off as far as a NAP was concerened. From his perspective, the NAP negotiations were a failure, and from my limited encounters with RB, I am guessing he is being called a "failure" "sucker" just generally being mocked and derided over there. It is perfectly natural for him to have some negative feelings about it. But it is not your fault if his team mates are blaming him and being unkind, etc...
You did great Yossa
He is just desperate to get what is best for his team. You told him that we were far off as far as a NAP was concerened. From his perspective, the NAP negotiations were a failure, and from my limited encounters with RB, I am guessing he is being called a "failure" "sucker" just generally being mocked and derided over there. It is perfectly natural for him to have some negative feelings about it. But it is not your fault if his team mates are blaming him and being unkind, etc... You did great Yossa
YossarianLives
Deity
Looks like RB is looking elsewhere for new friends:
UCiv definitely did not have OB with them last turn. Not a good sign...
UCiv definitely did not have OB with them last turn. Not a good sign...
Well RB has shown that they are willing to offer far sweeter deals to anyone and everyone than what they offer us. I'm guessing they made UCiv an offer they couldn't refuse... Something along the lines of giving them a bunch of military units to attack CFC... They tried to get us to attack UCiv and that failed, so why not try to get UCiv to attack us instead. Good strategy TBH.
Bowsling
Deity
Some posted somewhere that UCiv probably bought the Great Person that RB was raffling off. What type was it?
YossarianLives
Deity
Bowsling
Deity
Ohhh, I thought it had been born already. That's worrisome. I guess we jus have to hope that UCiv is just paying in advance for a GP. 
YossarianLives
Deity
I had a short chat with Scooter this morning. At this point, I was a little less concerned about being guarded about what I told him:
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I love how he puts things. It is we who set all this and CP and Poly are doing our job. Means they must be not happy while we are using them And the best of all: "this little dogpile" LOLANd about logistic nightmare defending Brick, well, they might have thought about this a bit earlier maybe? When they decided to settle it? They believed CP will wave a hand and forget about it? LOL...
I take it as a compliment on our team that RB thinks that we're masterminding the whole operation. BTW, we probably get some nice refugees if the end result of the war is total annihilation of RB since at least some in their team seem to think highly of us.
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