Forums without borders...ain't no doctors here!

I haven't watched any Seinfeld other than the couple of minutes that told me it was something that made no sense.

Regardless of some pop culture reference, it's still unethical for a moderator to pick and choose which rule to enforce with which member, or to completely disregard the rules altogether. That's what isn't funny.

Formaldehyde said:
Either way, it was meant as a joke. Whether you thought it was funny or not really isn't important.
:rolleyes:

I don't care how you meant it. The thread's subject is non-CFC forum moderation, not ridiculous American TV shows that don't make any sense.
 
I haven't watched any Seinfeld other than the couple of minutes that told me it was something that made no sense.

Regardless of some pop culture reference, it's still unethical for a moderator to pick and choose which rule to enforce with which member, or to completely disregard the rules altogether. That's what isn't funny.


:rolleyes:

I don't care how you meant it. The thread's subject is non-CFC forum moderation, not ridiculous American TV shows that don't make any sense.

Actually, the thread is about whether you participate in the more rough and tumble worlds of commenting on the internet and what your experiences of that might be.
 
A lot of comedies aren't going to make sense if you watch just a couple minutes of them. It helps to know the plot and characters.
 
Here, when you make a cultural reference that is not immediately understood, a discussion ensues. It is a discussion along the same lines as has been pursued before involving at least some participants who have participated before. I could probably write a fairly accurate analysis of Valka's viewing choices and know generally what cultural references not to use when she is around.

In the more rough and tumble world this doesn't happen. Someone uses a cultural reference that someone else doesn't get and there is a brief flame exchange. People who get it gang up v people who don't, generally, though sometimes it spins differently. While it can get really nasty and heated, it generally dies out faster it seems.
 
A lot of comedies aren't going to make sense if you watch just a couple minutes of them. It helps to know the plot and characters.
How would I know the plot and characters if what I see is so pointless and dumb that I'm not motivated to learn any more about it?

I could probably write a fairly accurate analysis of Valka's viewing choices and know generally what cultural references not to use when she is around.
I'd be interested to see how accurate your analysis would be. Please go ahead with this exercise, as I'm honestly curious to see if you'd be correct.
 
Valka - I could be wrong, but based on my experience of internet filtering and whatnot, I suspect The Handmaid's Tale is censored on the CBC website because it's perceived as having strong sexual theme eg "unsuitable for younger Canadians", rather than because of conservative politics.

Still stupid, colossally so, but not outright malicious. I think.

(Also, speaking as a Canadian, I like being informed of what happens south of the border. We'll be flooded with enough of those 10$ soon enough anyway :-p )
 
Valka - I could be wrong, but based on my experience of internet filtering and whatnot, I suspect The Handmaid's Tale is censored on the CBC website because it's perceived as having strong sexual theme eg "unsuitable for younger Canadians", rather than because of conservative politics.

Still stupid, colossally so, but not outright malicious. I think.

(Also, speaking as a Canadian, I like being informed of what happens south of the border. We'll be flooded with enough of those 10$ soon enough anyway :-p )
Sorry, but I don't believe that. The post I was replying to was much more explicitly worded than mine was, and it was allowed to stay. And I highly doubt that there are that many people under 18 who read the CBC site at all, unless they're following sports or entertainment. Just because I would have followed the political sections at age 16, it doesn't mean that a lot of other kids do. There are posts with profanity that are allowed to stay, so I really don't think that protecting the sensibilities of minors is the reason why my posts were censored.

I'm reasonably sure that you might have noticed that Margaret Atwood tends to speak out in favor of the environment, against censorship, and so on? In short, she speaks out in favor of things that Harper and his cronies are against, and vice-versa.
 
People certainly do have a problem with the sexual content in that particular book, and it may be that some soccer mom got the CBC to add it to a list of red flag words. Then you post would have been caught and flagged. Might even be an automated system.

I honestly find that more likely than Harptwit (for all that he's a control freak) is going around banning reference to super-celebrated Canadian authors from the national broadcaster's site. That, and Harper and the CBC seems to be at each other's throat far more often than collaborating.
 
It is really odd they would censor just the name of a book with sexually explicit material.
 
I occasionally post on an Open University forum. I've never seen any moderation going on there. Nor have I ever seen any need for it. Mind you, their forums aren't open to the general public, so there's that I guess.
 
Okay, I'm going back through my posts...

Apparently Thou Shalt Not Mention That Peter MacKay Resigned. Not even as a bare statement of fact.


Here is the article I'm talking about: Halifax woman opening her home to P.E.I. women needing abortions

The person I was replying to was saying stuff about government wanting women to bear offspring for infertile older women to adopt. My comment was merely this: "That's what happens in The Handmaid's Tale." I don't remember if that was my first or second comment that was zapped; there were two of them and I can't find the other. Anyway, this was posted on May 31, and you won't be able to find it, as it's only visible to me and to the twits who work for Viafoura.
 
I usually avoid such sites because they devolve into name calling, fallacies, and comments that repeat themselves despite being non arguments. That kind of post can happen anywhere, but is spammed so frequently on popular boards with minimal moderation that posting feels like a waste of time to me.

And yes, I have encountered forum mods on other sites that hold different people to different standards and break their own rules, to the point of straight dishonesty.
 
While there's certainly a lot of that, I've found that in general applying the same standards to everyone doesn't actually result in a fair forum.

It results in a forum where bigots can spew their hatred freely without ever being confronted, because their hatred is "opinion" (so long as it's not outright call to murders or call people inferior and just say that they believe this or that group is responsible for this or that ill, or that this or that group is made of sinners, or that this or that group shouldn't have certain rights) while confronting them is "flaming". In a similar vein, the idea that it's fine to bash an entire group, but not a specific individual, which is an entirely arbitrary limit (as groups are made of people ; if you say a group is bad you say the individuals within are bad).

Nevermind that telling people "You don't deserve this right I enjoy!" is a whole lot more offensive and insulting than telling people "Wow, you're really bigoted!".

At some point you either have to silence one group (by telling the bigots they're not allowed to post their opinions), or else allow the bigoted-against to fight back (by calling out people on their bigotry).

The forum I'm in charge of tried both. We found the first worked better, in the long run.
 
It results in a forum where bigots can spew their hatred freely without ever being confronted, because their hatred is "opinion" (so long as it's not outright call to murders or call people inferior and just say that they believe this or that group is responsible for this or that ill, or that this or that group is made of sinners, or that this or that group shouldn't have certain rights) while confronting them is "flaming". In a similar vein, the idea that it's fine to bash an entire group, but not a specific individual, which is an entirely arbitrary limit (as groups are made of people ; if you say a group is bad you say the individuals within are bad).

The conclusion you make does not follow from the logic/evidence. Applying rules equally does not mean allowing undesirable behavior. It means that your rules are inconsistent with how a given person wants that forum to operate.

You can, for example, make explicit rules against topics that target belief systems if those types of posts bother you as opposed to you simply dismissing them as drivel. It is also possible to argue rationally against bigots without insulting them or breaking any forum rules, insofar as you can present rational arguments to anything (even if the act of doing so to a wall, for example, isn't rational). You can (and I would) make the case that doing so is a waste of time, but I would also argue that confronting them in any other capacity is at least an equal waste of time at that point. Many forums have rules against derailing threads/going off-topic outside of off-topic subforums, and it's hard for people to spew hate in unrelated threads without going off-topic.

What is not okay is to create a situation whereby you define explicit rules, and then only enforce them against people you don't like. Regardless of whether the reason you don't like them is valid in your mind, that is dishonest practice. If a particular behavior is so bad that it merits censorship, the honest approach is to put it in the rules and prevent people from doing it.

Similarly bad is to create vague nonsense like "no trolling" and then simply allow moderators sole discretion as to what constitutes "trolling", such that any post that people disagree with, even if it presents supporting evidence and is 100% on topic, can be defined as "trolling" if it so pleases the moderator, with appeals ignored outright. When you get dinged for repeating what a developer/moderator said (in writing, on the same forum) in a thread about the topic in question in order to explain your reasoning, you have flagrant dishonesty and one-sided moderation. Most sites have at least some language against this though, and it's really variant on whether it gets abused to oust people with critical opinions or if it's truly reserved for overt efforts to anger people.

Absent any moderation at all, most of the time it's just ad-hominem all over the place with frequent appeals to authority and a ton of one-liners thrown in to completely drown out anything resembling someone making an argument or even a useful observation. Take the ESPM comments section during the Sandusky story...lots of finger pointing and jokes in bad taste, not a whole lot about what was actually done by people involved and what theoretically should have been done. There was basically nothing worth reading in those comments and not a great deal to say to people making them. Political news stories are similar in my experience, though if it's not a huge story you might not get spammed out of sight.

Moderation here is one of the site's strongest aspects. I didn't realize that in detail at first because it was the first time I frequented a single forum to this extent, so it took until I had 10-20k posts across other boards to see the scope of differences one might encounter.
 
What is not okay is to create a situation whereby you define explicit rules, and then only enforce them against people you don't like. Regardless of whether the reason you don't like them is valid in your mind, that is dishonest practice. If a particular behavior is so bad that it merits censorship, the honest approach is to put it in the rules and prevent people from doing it
I know you're talking about selective enforcement, but the mention of explicit rules and arbitrariness brings to mind an issue that pops up when rules are made too explicit: large numbers of minor infractions, which serve to annoy users without making the forum a more civil place.

For example, the inappropriate language rules here clearly state that even "****" is not allowed if you can clearly infer what swear word it was supposed to be. This is more restrictive than even most sites with strong profanity policies allow, and enforcing this is a nightmare. People say "****", "%#&$", etc. all the time, and infracting people for things like that seems to just drive people away without making the site better in any way. So I've informally stopped enforcing that.

(This doesn't go especially far: if "goat" were a swear word, I would still enforce the language policy if someone posted "g**t". And of course other mods might enforce the rules as written even for "****".)

Another good example is where to draw the lines on advocating violence, since technically anyone advocating a military action or talking positively about revolution is advocating violence, and in the latter case is advocating illegal activity as well. Others include whether to demand translation of very short foreign language phrases, whether to enforce rules on personal threads (e.g. technically warpus's travel threads are personal threads, but they're obviously a positive addition to the site), what to do with minor spam and slightly rude comments (now allowed in non-RD threads), and so on.

This all seems fairly trivial compared to issues like selective enforcement and punishment of people with the "wrong" beliefs, but the thread I opened about declining OT activity indicates that we went too far with enforcement of minor issues and that it really did hurt many people's willingness to participate. I've informally dialed back my minor rule enforcement as a result.

It's a tough balance, of course, because loosening the rules too much would result in this site's quality deteriorating until it resembled the cesspools we see on the rest of the internet. I have never stayed active on any other site for anything close to the amount of time I've been here, and it's the quality of discussion that has kept me here. Civility is hard to come by; when I look at news or (especially) Youtube comment sections it's mostly out of morbid curiosity and no desire to join in.
 
As far as that (swearwords) go, my forum's policy has long been that we care about what you're using the words for, not what words you use. I don't think we even ever used the auto-censor except for practical jokes.

But on the whole, re the decline of OT...while the rules may not be helping, what's happening net-wide is that traditional forums are declining in terms of activity. IT,s happening here, it's happening on the forum I run (our posts per month average has gone down from nearly 100 000 in 2010 to around 25 000 so far this year), it's happening on our main rivals, it's happening everywhere. Forums just don't have the tools to compete with more modern forms of social internet, except in a niche/nostalgia capacity.
 
That's my best guess too - we're declining for primarily structural and internet-wide reasons, as forums like this have gone out of style. But there's nothing we can do about that, so it's best to focus on things we can do. We'll probably still contract anyway, of course, but hopefully slower.
 
I know you're talking about selective enforcement, but the mention of explicit rules and arbitrariness brings to mind an issue that pops up when rules are made too explicit: large numbers of minor infractions, which serve to annoy users without making the forum a more civil place.

For example, the inappropriate language rules here clearly state that even "****" is not allowed if you can clearly infer what swear word it was supposed to be. This is more restrictive than even most sites with strong profanity policies allow, and enforcing this is a nightmare. People say "****", "%#&$", etc. all the time, and infracting people for things like that seems to just drive people away without making the site better in any way. So I've informally stopped enforcing that.

(This doesn't go especially far: if "goat" were a swear word, I would still enforce the language policy if someone posted "g**t". And of course other mods might enforce the rules as written even for "****".)

Another good example is where to draw the lines on advocating violence, since technically anyone advocating a military action or talking positively about revolution is advocating violence, and in the latter case is advocating illegal activity as well. Others include whether to demand translation of very short foreign language phrases, whether to enforce rules on personal threads (e.g. technically warpus's travel threads are personal threads, but they're obviously a positive addition to the site), what to do with minor spam and slightly rude comments (now allowed in non-RD threads), and so on.

This all seems fairly trivial compared to issues like selective enforcement and punishment of people with the "wrong" beliefs, but the thread I opened about declining OT activity indicates that we went too far with enforcement of minor issues and that it really did hurt many people's willingness to participate. I've informally dialed back my minor rule enforcement as a result.

It's a tough balance, of course, because loosening the rules too much would result in this site's quality deteriorating until it resembled the cesspools we see on the rest of the internet. I have never stayed active on any other site for anything close to the amount of time I've been here, and it's the quality of discussion that has kept me here. Civility is hard to come by; when I look at news or (especially) Youtube comment sections it's mostly out of morbid curiosity and no desire to join in.

I agree that it's hard to write rules and enforce them to the letter. The expletive thing to me seems more clear-cut than the "violence" issue. The former is a question of intent and enforcement drifting; it's something that merits a small modification to the definition of the rule. Four symbols could mean one of quite a few expletives that would be censored, and I don't see the theoretical distinction between doing that and simply writing (expletive) at that point...in both cases the reader simply infers one (or doesn't) and continues.

The military action one is, to me, a much better example of something that's a bit rough to create a rule and enforce to the letter because it can be applied in an unexpected way that's difficult to write out. Still, this isn't a black-or-white issue in totality, there is such a thing as "lighter or darker grey", and the more ambiguity you add the more you necessarily set mods up for selective enforcement.

The one that has me miffed from another site though is instead a case where a mod flame-baited, used selective enforcement to issue infractions on ticky-tack stuff, "forgot" to check the "notify user of warning" box (violating the forum's rules), twice, then issued a ban without any explanation being accessible (violating the forum's rules again). Finally, an appeal sent to the forum administrator was ignored outright, violating the forum's rules a third time. It's that kind of stuff that's really frustrating, doubly so because it's the developer doing it, and the developer that is angry over being pointed out that his statements are inconsistent with...his own other statements.

Stating objectively demonstrable flaws in a product in a thread about the product or that terminology, as used, can not possibly be consistent with implementation in any known definition of the word in a thread about the term are not actions that would typically result in longstanding bans. Neither of those are explicitly against the rules, so they just slap a "troll" term on that and off you go. That's a little...flagrant. I know my standards might have been a little high going in but come on lol.
 
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