Free Will - Does it exist?

Does free will exist?


  • Total voters
    100
Warpus said:
You have never sufficiently explained this concept, or explained the arguments you think that support it.
Birdjaguar said:
The concept is that there is an underlying unity to all existence that is permanent and unchanging and that the individual elements of the physical universe in whatever way they appear are just transitory manifestations of that unity.

There are no "arguments" that support it. One can make the claim merely as an assumption in an intellectual argument and build case for some view of the universe. Or One can make it based on experience.

Ahh, so you made it up then. Should have said so from the start!
Actually, I didn't make it up at all. It is an old concept that has been around for thousands of years. I'm a little surprised that you don't know that. In any case your disdain for my answer to your question is clearly evident in your reply.

What is interesting to me, though, is first, you seem to imply that because you thought that I had made it up, it has less value than if someone else had made it up, and second that you fail to grasp that all concepts are put into words by people (unless you accept that they could be inspired by some other, unseen entitiy).

Do you really think that the value of a "concept" should be tied to the person using it or who is usually associated with it? I would think that the value of a concept would be better measured by its usefulness. If you find the concept I presented of little value, for reasons other than you thought I had made it up, I would like to know what those reason are. If you find it of little value simply because you thought I had made it up, then don't bother.
 
I would love to hear how an entity could make choices in a deterministic Universe!

Post #88. (Rats - missed #86 by [Don Adams voice]that much[/Don Adams voice]). Nothing in determinism prevents people from imagining various futures, evaluating them, and implementing one accordingly. Nor does it prevent this process from being effective, nor does it turn it into some kind of sham, etc. etc.

Uh, why? [is there no past or future]

I think they're playing a Bill Clinton on us. They're debating what the meaning of "is" is. The past was; the future will be; neither "is".
 
Actually, I didn't make it up at all. It is an old concept that has been around for thousands of years. I'm a little surprised that you don't know that. In any case your disdain for my answer to your question is clearly evident in your reply.

Ahh, so somebody else made it up!

There is no disdain! You are reading too much into my comments :)

BirdJaguar said:
What is interesting to me, though, is first, you seem to imply that because you thought that I had made it up, it has less value than if someone else had made it up, and second that you fail to grasp that all concepts are put into words by people (unless you accept that they could be inspired by some other, unseen entitiy).

Nah, I don't care who made it up, really. You, some guy 2,000 years ago, Einstein.

And the only type of value I am concerned with here is arriving at the truth.. What sort of value are you looking for? I would guess that it entails a lot more than what I'm looking for.

Birdjaguar said:
Do you really think that the value of a "concept" should be tied to the person using it or who is usually associated with it? I would think that the value of a concept would be better measured by its usefulness. If you find the concept I presented of little value, for reasons other than you thought I had made it up, I would like to know what those reason are. If you find it of little value simply because you thought I had made it up, then don't bother.

No, you misread. I think that making stuff up generally, and parading it as the truth(tm) is an exercise in futility (if that's where you stop).

Sure, it could be useful to your life in many ways.. but it doesn't make it true ;) I'm not saying at all that your idea is not useful to you.. In fact, I believe it is probably very useful.. but yeah.. it doesn't make it true.
 
Post #88. (Rats - missed #86 by [Don Adams voice]that much[/Don Adams voice]). Nothing in determinism prevents people from imagining various futures, evaluating them, and implementing one accordingly. Nor does it prevent this process from being effective, nor does it turn it into some kind of sham, etc. etc.

Yeah, but like.. this would not be possible in a deterministic Universe.

A deterministic Universe is a clockwork.. You wind it up, and it runs a (fully.. 100%) predictable course.

There is no room for choice.
 
Ahh, so somebody else made it up!

There is no disdain! You are reading too much into my comments :)

Nah, I don't care who made it up, really. You, some guy 2,000 years ago, Einstein.

And the only type of value I am concerned with here is arriving at the truth.. What sort of value are you looking for? I would guess that it entails a lot more than what I'm looking for.

No, you misread. I think that making stuff up generally, and parading it as the truth(tm) is an exercise in futility (if that's where you stop).

Sure, it could be useful to your life in many ways.. but it doesn't make it true ;) I'm not saying at all that your idea is not useful to you.. In fact, I believe it is probably very useful.. but yeah.. it doesn't make it true.
I am sorry I misread your post. :) If what you are looking for is the "Truth", how will you know that you have found it? Will it be labeled? What makes you think that you would even recognize it? Will I recognize it if I "meet it on the street" or read it in a book? If, by happenstance, my above stated, concept were to be true, you have clearly missed it and continue your search in vain. That would be a shame. ;) Will everyone recognize "Truth" when it appears?

Or are you only looking for "little truths" that can perhaps be "summed" into something larger and more meaningful? seeking Truth is not the problem, knowing it when it is in front of you is what is difficult. Some kind of "measuring stick" is necessary. What is yours?

Concepts are ways of talking about things. they are constructs that enable us to "point at" things that are difficult if not impossible to accurately describe or expereince. What is your concept of "Truth"? Does it fully encompass what actually is "true"?
 
I think they're playing a Bill Clinton on us. They're debating what the meaning of "is" is. The past was; the future will be; neither "is".
No, I'm actually taking it a step further than that.

Let me further narrow the definition of Now to mean "here and now," and define "present" to mean "all things that are happening outside of my perception at this moment in time."

Given these definitions, I am asserting that not only are the past and future illusions, but so is the present. This is not just equivocation on the meaning of the verb "to be."

What I'm saying is that your senses do not lie to you; however, your memory may very well lie, and so may your account of the past. Your senses do not assume things; however, your ego may very well make assumptions, especially in cases where your senses lack complete information. Your senses do not anticipate the future; however, your imagination may very well anticipate future events and possibilities.

Every part of your experience that is not part of the "here and now" is equally illusory.

Let me give an example:

Suppose you have an airline ticket to depart in a half-hour, and you are in a cab on the way to the airport. The plane is presumably on the concourse at your gate, and you are in a great hurry to catch it before it takes off. In this situation, your plane is in the "present," and is very real to you, and if you are distressed at your condition of lateness, that is very real to you as well.

Now, suppose that, unbeknownst to you, the plane is delayed and hasn't even landed yet. Because you don't have that information, it is the illusory plane on the concourse that defines your reality, and the "actual" position of the plane has no bearing whatsoever on your experience until you find out about it.

So, let's say that you call a friend at home, who looks up the status of the plane and tells you that the plane was delayed, hasn't even landed yet, and that you are in no danger of missing your flight at all. Your entire situation has changed. An entire plane was removed from the concourse in your head, and placed in the sky flying somewhere over the Arizona desert (or wherever you imagine it to be). You are no longer late, you can relax and stop yelling at the cab driver for driving so slow.

Now, let's assume that your friend was mistaken, and looked up the wrong flight number (or it was misreported), and as you pull up to the terminal, you find out that the plane was on time after all, and that you really are late, and most likely going to miss your flight.

The point I'm trying to make is that what most people mistake for "reality" is really no more than a collection of stories, assumptions, prejudices, and projections. Some of these are "right," some are "wrong," and some are "close enough" to pass.

The Now, however, is of an entirely different nature. There are no assumptions in the now: there is only sensation, and intention, followed by more sensation, followed by another intention. In other words, free will.
 
Nice post. :hatsoff:
 
Post #88. (Rats - missed #86 by [Don Adams voice]that much[/Don Adams voice]). Nothing in determinism prevents people from imagining various futures, evaluating them, and implementing one accordingly. Nor does it prevent this process from being effective, nor does it turn it into some kind of sham, etc. etc.

Yes you are imagining a future , you evaluate it and you choose one of the available options. But the process of evaluation of those choices is the result of chemicals moving on your Brain . Your ability to change opinion based on evaluation , adapt , learn etc is all a program. There is room for choice but that choice is made by machines with no free will. Some are better programmed at making choices.

You may have to select between choice A and Choice B. Choice A is the most logical and Choice B is the one that may pleases you more you choose A , You have made a decision based on some criteria but those criteria are hard coded on your body and brain. Though the process of evaluating Choice A and B and choosing one based on several criteria is approaching Free will more than for example less intelligent creatures as insects.
 
Free will does not exist. We are all totally enslaved by a celestial overlord.
 
I am sorry I misread your post. :) If what you are looking for is the "Truth", how will you know that you have found it? Will it be labeled? What makes you think that you would even recognize it? Will I recognize it if I "meet it on the street" or read it in a book? If, by happenstance, my above stated, concept were to be true, you have clearly missed it and continue your search in vain. That would be a shame. ;) Will everyone recognize "Truth" when it appears?

No, but just making something up, doesn't make it truth. Sure, you could get lucky, but that is unlikely.

Further inquests are required to determine whether it truly is the truth(tm). You have done no such thing, and I must thus assume that your hypothesis has no legs to stand on.

You could be right, sure. But by the same token, the guy on the street corner screaming about the end of pancakes as we know them could also be right.
 
Yeah, but like.. this would not be possible in a deterministic Universe.

A deterministic Universe is a clockwork.. You wind it up, and it runs a (fully.. 100%) predictable course.

It's not only possible in a deterministic Universe, it may be happening in this one. If Bohm, or Everett, or some such physicist is right about determinism, it is.

Only God, if there were one, could manage the knowledge and calculation skill to predict the course of our (possibly, for all we know) deterministic but (definitely) chaotic universe. But even if someOne could make such calculations and predictions, it remains true that what the future holds depends on us. Different choices would bring different results - which proves that they really are choices.

But the process of evaluation of those choices is the result of chemicals moving on your Brain . Your ability to change opinion based on evaluation , adapt , learn etc is all a program.

What does "program" mean for a creature that is conscious, and is analog rather than digital?

If it means that evaluation of options is a deterministic physical process, good! The better to deal reliably with physical information, my dear. If the observable signs indicate that a berry is poisonous, I don't want my choice of whether to eat the berry to be random! I want it to be deterministically decided by the very weighty reasons against that course of action.
 
Back
Top Bottom