Freedom for Catalonia?

[Edelbroy]

I cant speak very good in English because I do not control the grammar... Nevertheless I speak Castilian(Spanish), Catalan and French. Bearing in mind that the Spanish is the language most spoken after the Chinese, the correct thing would be that you could speak Spanish, but you do not know, because of it I do the effort to try to write in English, and your response is to mock at my mistakes on having written in a language that I do not dominate...

Menudo garrulo.

 

[Edelbroy]

.....

 

[Munch]

I don't think anyone was mocking your English skills, which by the way aren't as bad as you claim. Rather I think the mocking was of the idea that Catalan history is more substantial than Dutch history.

 

[Tani Coyote]

Edelbroy, you're new here, and I can tell by that comment right there. (And well, your low post count)

On CivFanatics, you are REQUIRED to speak English. You're free to write something in another language, but you must then write an English translation.

On your earlier post... you said referring to the EU as a federal republic is ignorant. I think you didn't understand me. I said the EU might become something like a federal republic in the FUTURE. Currently it's not a country in it's own right, but at the rate things are going, it will be eventually.

In the event that comment about being "ignorant" wasn't directed at me, disregard this post.

Edit: Also, your English isn't that bad.

Oh, also, on the comment where you mention how it's funny Americans are so anti-independence despite the fact we seceded from Britain. I have two responses:

A. What's in the past is done. I don't really see secession, along with all the beautiful things such as religious wars and ethnic cleansing, as necessary any more in our day and age. Secession should join those two in the dustbin of history, and nationalism should join all three as well.

B. America's secession, whether justified or not, has reasoning that goes beyond any real "nationalism", unlike Catalonia's. We had taxes imposed upon us that we weren't used to(these taxes were probably fair, but nonetheless Americans weren't used to paying them). We could be arrested without any real proof and then deported to England for trial. Troops could stay inside our homes without our consent. If you look at the U.S. Constitution, a lot of it is in response to what Britain did to us.

What is being done to Catalonia in this day and age to justify secession? Are your people being tortured, abused, and massacred? Or are your taxes high(I don't consider high taxation grounds for secession, as it seems outright selfish to me)?

On the language issue you mention... I'm afraid it's hard to find sympathy with me. I believe in the principle of establishing a single language that all people can speak. Though in the case of Spain, so long as somebody speaks Spanish in political matters, they should be able to speak whatever else they like. No different than how the USA should be a primarily-English country, though we shouldn't suppress the other languages in society.

 

[Arwon]

Catalonia has more people and more territory that the Netherlands, their historical significance is much larger, has more production and more indutrial gross domestic product that the Netherlands, receives more tourists and although the port of Barcelona is smaller than that of Rotterdam, receives and send more goods and passengers. The Catalan Parliament is the governing body of Europe's oldest Constitutionalists (the eleventh century and twelfth century !!!), preserves the earliest texts of the laws feudal Europe, the Book of Trials (Liber iudiciorum (Llibre dels Judicis in catalan) or Forum iudicum)... So I continue endlessly, and my question is: Why Holland can be independent but not Catalonia?

Ironically enough people in a country like USA, which belonged to England and became independent, have the gall to say that other countries should not be independent to prevent political decentralization ... well really must be very ignorant to say that the European Union is a federal republic ... Europe has no constitution, then, is not a government ...

You guys already have more autonomy than pretty much any other part of Europe under the current Spanish constitutional arrangements (it would be a good idea for Spain to formally identify as federalist, but whatever). You have a government which freely and actively promotes the local language, and it's not like there's any repression directed of the Catalan people. Catalonia is Catalan, despite whatever the idiots who think Castillian is the only legitimate language of Spain say. But it's not just Catalan - half the population prefers to speak Castillian and Catalonia is also Spanish in culture and history. Plenty of people, probably the majority, happily identify with both parts of this identity. There just isn't a majority who are in favour of independence and there probably will never be, as the memories of past abuses disappear with the Franco generation.

As for the history of Catalonia you've given there... it's a pretty simplistic and mostly-constructed view of history, pretty much the version sponsored by the Generalitat. Nationalism is a 19th century ideology and like nationalisms, these arguments and justifications were largely invented in the 19th century*, even if they did try to use history for their own political ends. That's not to say that any given nationalism is illegitimate, just that their versions of history are basically self-serving, used for repackaging a complicated and ambiguous history for a specific political purpose.

You just can't claim that an 11th-century court of aristocrats justifies a contemporary independence movement. Early Medieval European monarchies were mostly far less absolutist than monarchies in the Late Middle Ages, the existence of limited monarchical rule and institutions similar to the Usatges were quite common. They represent nothing more than this: the Crown of Aragón and County of Barcelona were areas where the monarch had less power than local feudal lords at this time, and they bothered to write down what the exact balance of powers was.

*Sabino Arana is an extreme example of this - modern Basque political nationalism got virtually all its symbols and history from one person in the late 19th century, likewise the kilt, tartan and bagpipes only started to be used to symbolise all of Scotland in the early 19th century. Most "ancient" symbols of a particular people were only used as such from the 19th century onwards. Castillian/Spanish nationalism is no exception either.

 

[Edelbroy]

I find it quite shocking that you dare say that the history of Catalonia is a lot of nationalist propaganda lies ...

Then, as you now and has never been a majority for independence in Catalonia ... Sorry to tell you, friend, that recent polls published by TV3 and the Government (Generalitat de Catalunya) say otherwise ... There is a majority since independence became a Ecnomus BOYCOTT against Catalonia led by the most conservative sectors of the extreme-right National Catholic Spanish (Zaplana, Azebes, Aznar, Aguirre ... that although Spanish nationalists and very racist against Arabs, all their names comes from the Arabic XD).

And no, today's Spain is NOT a federal state. Because each region a federal state freely available economic resources and uses them as needed, that is not true in Spain.
Unlike the other European countries, in Spain, not all regions that produce above average, are above average, that does not happen especially in Catalonia, which is undergoing a fiscal plundering ... During the Franco Catalonia ran with costs of 41% statewide, and even now there is a pillaging the same level, Catalonia still receives far less than it pays to the state ... Is it fair that the taxes that I pay with my work, are sent over to other communities, they call us thieves, they burn our flags and boicoit against our products? Why do we have to pay utilities and if in return, Founding get only contempt?

Most Catalans are willing to belong to Spain if we could have our own resources and were respected by the Spanish ... These conditions are not met, and after 300 years of subjugation, Catalonia should be able to use their democratic will to achieve independence.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Look, aguing for the independence of Catalonia is like arguing for the independence of Bavaria from the rest of Germany or the independence of Cornwall from the UK, sure there is cultural arguments and so forth but when it comes down to it they are better off part of the larger countires and makes more sense that way.

Go to far down the independence road and you might as well say we just split into city states and then tribes and then familys.....

 

[Winner]

It's funny how the exact same arguments keep appearing in places as diverse as Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Spain, or Britain.

I am categorically against any more countries appearing in Europe. We need less (preferably only one), not more.

Seriously, I don't get these separatist - don't they have anything useful to devote their time and energy to?

 

[Tani Coyote]

I am categorically against any more countries appearing in Europe. We need less (preferably only one), not more.

Finally some sanity. Amen to that!

Seriously, I don't get these separatist - don't they have anything useful to devote their time and energy to?

This is Europe's fault... the welfare state is extremely successful at reducing the need to focus on being economically self-sufficient, therefore allowing more leisure time and as a consequence, radical - and just outright minority - ideas like separatism. Darn socialism! /sarcasm

There's exceptions to every rule of thumb, and while most human beings find other things to do with their spare time, a minority decide to embrace nationalism, rather than internationalism.

Which I feel is unfortunate, because rather than complaining about their identity - eventually creating an us vs. them fallacy - and against persecution - which doesn't exist - most separatists should instead be focusing on integration, and a way to maintain some sort of distinct identity within a greater whole. Like, maybe those who want Catalan independence should instead try to find some way to get a special status within the EU once it does become a functional federation/confederation?

 

[Winner]

I remember a lecture by some political scientist years ago, in which the guy argued that the EU in fact inadvertently stimulates these separatist movements. Many regions in Europe now simply want to sidetrack their national governments and deal directly with Brussels, without any oversight.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Independence for real countries like Scotland, Brittany, all Ireland, Wales and Basques. Not sure about Catalonia though. There are already too many Romance states, though on the other hand it would be good to see FC Barcelona forced to play in a crappy league like Celtic and Rangers do.

@ Winner, this can happen without increasing the number of "countries", as they are already countries. And if less states is what you want, then Bohemia should go back under German rule; strike that, we can cut the number of European countries even further by giving all the generic Slav countries to Mother Russia.

 

[Arwon]

I find it quite shocking that you dare say that the history of Catalonia is a lot of nationalist propaganda lies ...

Then, as you now and has never been a majority for independence in Catalonia ... Sorry to tell you, friend, that recent polls published by TV3 and the Government (Generalitat de Catalunya) say otherwise ... There is a majority since independence became a Ecnomus BOYCOTT against Catalonia led by the most conservative sectors of the extreme-right National Catholic Spanish (Zaplana, Azebes, Aznar, Aguirre ... that although Spanish nationalists and very racist against Arabs, all their names comes from the Arabic XD).

And no, today's Spain is NOT a federal state. Because each region a federal state freely available economic resources and uses them as needed, that is not true in Spain.
Unlike the other European countries, in Spain, not all regions that produce above average, are above average, that does not happen especially in Catalonia, which is undergoing a fiscal plundering ... During the Franco Catalonia ran with costs of 41% statewide, and even now there is a pillaging the same level, Catalonia still receives far less than it pays to the state ... Is it fair that the taxes that I pay with my work, are sent over to other communities, they call us thieves, they burn our flags and boicoit against our products? Why do we have to pay utilities and if in return, Founding get only contempt?

Most Catalans are willing to belong to Spain if we could have our own resources and were respected by the Spanish ... These conditions are not met, and after 300 years of subjugation, Catalonia should be able to use their democratic will to achieve independence.

It's not that they're all lies, just incomplete and selective views of history. However many times Catalan politicians claim that their Generalitat is the same as what existed in the 11th century, the claim that Catalonia has some unique and long-lived parliamentary pedigree is quite simply wrong. What's more, it's a claim with a traceable origin in 19th century Catalanism, and it's a reading of history specifically designed to portray a view of history in which imperialist and absolutist Castille conquered and subjugated freedom-loving Catalonia. It's myth-making, pure and simple.

By the same token, state boundaries are a bit arbitrary either way. Just as Catalanism doesn't have any special long-term historical claim to a unique legacy, neither does Spain have a 500 year old manifest destiny to rule all of Iberia. It's really nothing but historical chance that Portugal is a separate country but that Catalonia, Castille, Aragón and Galicia all fall within the same borders these days. You're right that Catalonia has a very distinct self-identity. It just doesn't seem worth redrawing the national borders at this stage. The frontiers are arbitrary and don't have much historical basis either way (whether Catalonia is an independent state or autonomous region within Spain), and there's no real oppression or denial of rights going on.

As for federalism. The state I'm from has a higher average income than most of the other states of Australia and our tax revenue goes towards supporting places like Tasmania and South Australia, which have struggling economies by comparison. That's pretty much the essence of federalism - pooled resources for shared returns.

Aragón has above average incomes too, and its taxes subsidise poorer areas of Spain too - why don't they complain? Catalonia gets a pretty good deal really... ever-increasing shares of central government revenue, ever-more independent taxation rights. Catalonia pays more on average than it receives because it's got more citizens with higher incomes, which means those have less need for government services and face higher progressive income taxation rates. You guys could get more government money by having a higher unemployment rate or less rich people, if you really wanted greater fiscal equity. The fiscal imbalance is not because of some conspiracy against Catalans.

I would certainly agree that things like boycotts are incredibly stupid, but really, so what? There's petty, stupid crap on both sides of the divide and Spain really needs to move past the bickering over these things.

 

[Babbler]

Anybody who asks for "freedom for Catalonia" is like somebody asking for to "free" the Basque Country, Quebec, Wales, New South Wales or California; i.e. an idiot. Catalonia has been free, like the rest of Spain, since 1975, when Franco kicked the bucket and democracy restored.

 

[Traitorfish]

Anybody who asks for "freedom for Catalonia" is like somebody asking for to "free" the Basque Country, Quebec, Wales, New South Wales or California; i.e. an idiot. Catalonia has been free, like the rest of Spain, since 1975, when Franco kicked the bucket and democracy restored.

That really depends on whether the national government can be considered to have a democractic mandate in a particular region; if not, then it can be argued that the inhabitants of that region are suffering political repression. Whether or not Catalonia is such an example, I've no idea, but it's certainly possible for such a situation to emerge, even in a democratic society. It's simply that democracies have, historically, been rather more conservative than they should be, preferring the status quo to genuine self-governance.
The issue is whether the repression is genuine, or imagined, and that's typically an entire argument in it's own right.

 

[cardgame]

I cant speak very good in English because I do not control the grammar... Nevertheless I speak Castilian(Spanish), Catalan and French. Bearing in mind that the Spanish is the language most spoken after the Chinese, the correct thing would be that you could speak Spanish, but you do not know, because of it I do the effort to try to write in English, and your response is to mock at my mistakes on having written in a language that I do not dominate...

Menudo garrulo.

 

[Dachs]

First language, secondary language, counting both, or what?

 

[cardgame]

First language, secondary language, counting both, or what?

I think it's both.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Unless Euskaria gets independence, Catalunya should be Spanish.

 

[Traitorfish]

First language, secondary language, counting both, or what?

Regardless, English is the accepted international language. Spanish simply happens to have a lot of native speakers. That's all well and good for them, certainly, but any effectively global forum needs to adapt to the reality of modern international communication. Also, the French.

 

[Dachs]

I don't think anyone was mocking your English skills, which by the way aren't as bad as you claim. Rather I think the mocking was of the idea that Catalan history is more substantial than Dutch history.

This.

I mean, really? The Dutch go and establish a global trade empire and play a major part in European Great Power politics for centuries, not to mention serving as an integral part in the economy of one of the most industrialized regions in Europe, and their history is somehow "smaller" in significance compared to the Catalans? I mean, far be it from me to even attempt to judge states/peoples/vaguely similar agglomerations of people who kinda speak the same language/whatever based on how significant in history they have been, but you gotta admit it was pretty silly to cite that as a support. This statement, for clarification, was addressed to mah boiiiii Edelbroy.

Regardless, English is the accepted international language. Spanish simply happens to have a lot of native speakers. That's all well and good for them, certainly, but any effectively global forum needs to adapt to the reality of modern international communication. Also, the French.

The weird thing is that the first thing I thought of when I started to respond to this statement was "Einverstanden"