Freedom of speech means freedom from repercussions?

[tetley]

I'm not as much concerned whether employees FEEL safe as much as they ARE safe. People are going to feel as they please. Can't run a business constantly obsessing over everybody's feelings.

I would tell the white guy that I was aware of--whatever he did online--but we are a nondiscriminatory workplace, and we have laws to abide by. And I expect a fully professional relationship with the black guy. If I see any of this guy I see on Facebook in the business, we are going to have problems. And I would ask him for an immediate verbal commitment to treat everyone professionally, the same as before (I assume the guy already has a prior track record of no issues).

I'm not too worried about keeping my eye on it. Everybody has their issues.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Also, I'm not sure why this has a "conservative safe space" tag. This falls under personal responsibility, and it's more of a liberal or leftist issue, the entitlement to doing whatever you want, whenever you want, at the expense of others, while others are expected to just tolerate it. That concept is an ideal many conservatives were railing against when they voted for Trump out of spite. It might be the reason, in a backwards way, that Trump became president, a backlash against this commonly practiced bs, especially prevalent in the millennial generation.

 

[tetley]

If I have an employee at a bar or restaurant negatively commenting on the fashion sense, or even attitude, of customers, if there's a chance this is going to get back to the customers, I must let that employee go.

First off, terminating an employee for commenting about customers at a bar is a bit extreme. I have vendors comment about their other customers all the time, and that is during business lunches.

Either way, you brought work into the bar at that point. You didn't keep the two separate, so it's not the same situation.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

I have vendors comment about their other customers all the time, and that is during business lunches.

Does that get back to their customers?

First off, terminating an employee for commenting about customers at a bar is a bit extreme.

Business can be pretty extreme. Competition, when a slight inclination can lead a customer easily in another direction, is pretty extreme. Life can be pretty extreme. Most business in the bar and restaurant enterprise is return business. If a person is damaging that, I wouldn't need them.

 

[BvBPL]

Huh. I had assumed that Apple ran a bar and employees at that bar were commenting about customers.

If you mean employees at a bar for leisure time commenting about customers then, yes, that does seem extreme, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t warranted.

That said, Apple is not obliged (to use his word) to fire those employees. He’s within his rights, but he’s not being forced by extrinsic circumstances to do so under those circumstances. He, and every other employer, can choose to do so or choose not to do so with both choices having consequences.

 

[sophie]

I'm not as much concerned whether employees FEEL safe as much as they ARE safe. People are going to feel as they please. Can't run a business constantly obsessing over everybody's feelings.

I would tell the white guy that I was aware of--whatever he did online--but we are a nondiscriminatory workplace, and we have laws to abide by. And I expect a fully professional relationship with the black guy. If I see any of this guy I see on Facebook in the business, we are going to have problems. And I would ask him for an immediate verbal commitment to treat everyone professionally, the same as before (I assume the guy already has a prior track record of no issues).

I'm not too worried about keeping my eye on it. Everybody has their issues.

Because if people feel uncomfortable they do less work, and what work they do is less good. Or because as an employer you have a moral obligation to ensure the health and safety of your employees while on the job, both physically and mentally. Or you know, because you want people to feel safe, comfortable and happy just in general, and to willfully not do so is cruel.

 

[tetley]

Tell that to any NFL coach.

 

[sophie]

Tell them what, that creating uncomfortable, negative work environments is morally and ethically bad, as well as harmful to productivity? Because I'm pretty sure they already know that, and if not then I need point no further than Jim Turner or to the 2011 Boston Red Sox.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm not as much concerned whether employees FEEL safe as much as they ARE safe. People are going to feel as they please. Can't run a business constantly obsessing over everybody's feelings.

Would you prefer the word "perception/perceive" instead of "feeling/feel"?

An employee who does not perceive that he/she is safe at the workplace or from his/her co-workers will not be a productive employee.

And I would ask him for an immediate verbal commitment to treat everyone professionally, the same as before (I assume the guy already has a prior track record of no issues).

You can't file a verbal conversation unless it's recorded, so how about just getting that employee to sign a document committing to treating everyone professionally?

 

[tetley]

Tell them that their players are not adults, but delicate little flowers whom the coach is morally obligated to protect physically and mentally. All the rigors of being hit by other players, all the while putting their sense of self-worth on the line by risking being cut from the team has got to be tough.

There are child labor laws, too. I have expectations that the people at work be adults. I have that of the KKK guy, and of everybody. And if the KKK guy is adult enough to keep his social media and professional lives separate, and he's contributing to the business, then what he does on his own time is his business. Discriminate against anybody at work, and we're going to have problems.

 

[tetley]

You can't file a verbal conversation unless it's recorded, so how about just getting that employee to sign a document committing to treating everyone professionally?

I might do that strictly for my own legal protection, in this environment.

 

[JollyRoger]

Why do you want to take away an employer's free speech right to say "You're fired!"

 

[metalhead]

I'm not as much concerned whether employees FEEL safe as much as they ARE safe. People are going to feel as they please. Can't run a business constantly obsessing over everybody's feelings.

I would tell the white guy that I was aware of--whatever he did online--but we are a nondiscriminatory workplace, and we have laws to abide by. And I expect a fully professional relationship with the black guy. If I see any of this guy I see on Facebook in the business, we are going to have problems. And I would ask him for an immediate verbal commitment to treat everyone professionally, the same as before (I assume the guy already has a prior track record of no issues).

I'm not too worried about keeping my eye on it. Everybody has their issues.

Would you worry about your company's image? If employees posted things on social media that harmed your company's reputation, wouldn't that be a problem? What about if they were badmouthing you, or ragging on your products?

Also, I'm not sure why this has a "conservative safe space" tag. This falls under personal responsibility, and it's more of a liberal or leftist issue, the entitlement to doing whatever you want, whenever you want, at the expense of others, while others are expected to just tolerate it. That concept is an ideal many conservatives were railing against when they voted for Trump out of spite. It might be the reason, in a backwards way, that Trump became president, a backlash against this commonly practiced bs, especially prevalent in the millennial generation.

I'm quite sure that millenials and liberals do the opposite of what you're talking about. Most tend to draw the line at harming other people. Conservatives are always the ones who don't seem to get that free speech doesn't mean society as a whole has to tolerate what you say.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

I'm quite sure that millenials and liberals do the opposite of what you're talking about. Most tend to draw the line at harming other people. Conservatives are always the ones who don't seem to get that free speech doesn't mean society as a whole has to tolerate what you say.

Right, that's why no one knew the silent majority, in an overwhelming number of states, existed.

Safe space concept is not a physical room, as a workplace, but ideological echo chambers bandwagoned and championed by the liberal press. If something's messed up, conservatives generally pray or work their way through it. The other side whines, fills the internet with psychobabble, and points a whole lot of fingers while talking a whole lot of trash. The closest thing to a "conservative safe space" is a religious congregation, and those are for everybody. Left/liberal safe spaces are everywhere else, but exclusive only for those who agree or say you're so pretty, so correct and so great. They're vomitous.

I shouldn't have brought it up in this thread. I have a tendency to follow the conversation off track and it leads to nothing matching the thread title. This time I did it on my own. I'm just going to let it go.

 

[metalhead]

Eh. The annual "War on Christmas" coverage tells me that conservatives do a mighty fine job of whining. Electing Donald Trump doesn't count as "working their way through it." Seems to me they all want to keep getting good paying jobs without any requirement to get an education or improve themselves in any way. Even reading is optional. I don't know who you think feels entitled in this country, but it's pretty clear from where I'm sitting which people feel they deserve to get everything while giving nothing up to get it.

 

[Agent327]

I'd just like to point out that such an utterance as in the OP would be considered trolling/flaming on CFC. And rightly so. The fact that 'conservatives' even regard this as an infraction on freedom of speech shows that these 'conservatives' have no clue what freedom of speech entails. It's not as bad as showing up at a funeral with signs 'God hates fags', but it's exactly in the same vein. If people can't behave, freedom of speech is wasted on them. If you so desperately want your freedom of speech, voice it anonymously. We have internet. Releases you from all responsibility of what you're saying.

 

[cardgame]

Also, I'm not sure why this has a "conservative safe space" tag. This falls under personal responsibility, and it's more of a liberal or leftist issue, the entitlement to doing whatever you want, whenever you want, at the expense of others, while others are expected to just tolerate it. That concept is an ideal many conservatives were railing against when they voted for Trump out of spite. It might be the reason, in a backwards way, that Trump became president, a backlash against this commonly practiced bs, especially prevalent in the millennial generation.

lol what?

the entitlement to doing whatever you want, whenever you want, at the expense of others, while others are expected to just tolerate it. That concept is an ideal of many conservatives

FTFY

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Safe space concept is not a physical room, as a workplace, but ideological echo chambers bandwagoned and championed by the liberal press. If something's messed up, conservatives generally pray or work their way through it. The other side whines, fills the internet with psychobabble, and points a whole lot of fingers while talking a whole lot of trash. The closest thing to a "conservative safe space" is a religious congregation, and those are for everybody. Left/liberal safe spaces are everywhere else, but exclusive only for those who agree or say you're so pretty, so correct and so great. They're vomitous.

LOL...clearly you have never seen Breitbart.

 

[EgonSpengler]

A lot of conservatives are angry about this - not just American ones, mind, but those in other parts of the world who want to be able to say bigoted things without repercussions.

In my earlier post, I mentioned the "without repercussions" part, but thinking about it some more, I feel like the more relevant part is,

who want to be able to say bigoted things

I think a lot of times, this may really be the crux of the matter. A lot of people want to return to the days when one could treat women, people of color, and queer people in whatever dismissive, disrespectful way one wanted, up to and including violence. I do think people go overboard with the "safe space" thing, but when I see one person going overboard with their "safe space" stuff and another person hanging a noose on a tree outside a school, the "safe space" person isn't the one I want to see thrown in jail.

Apple, if you think a "safe space" in which people are called pretty, correct and great is "vomitous", then surely your disgust with people who throw a Nazi salute into the air and proclaim "Hail Victory" is just beyond expressing with mere words. Surely.

 

[BvBPL]

I think a lot of times, this may really be the crux of the matter. A lot of people want to return to the days when one could treat women, people of color, and queer people in whatever dismissive, disrespectful way one wanted, up to and including violence. I do think people go overboard with the "safe space" thing, but when I see one person going overboard with their "safe space" stuff and another person hanging a noose on a tree outside a school, the "safe space" person isn't the one I want to see thrown in jail.

*Psst.*
Hey, buddy. I'm a gonna let you in on a little secret.
You can be opposed to both hateful acts and overbroad safe spaces.