From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

[Cheezy the Wiz]

It's a little-known fact that the Soviet performance at Kursk was abysmal. It wasn't the relatively evenly matched large tank battle people think it was. It was basically a turkey shoot for the Germans.

It depends on your definition of "performance." It wasn't meant to be an even-pitched battle, tank vs tank. In fact I can't say I've ever heard it imagined as such by anyone who's studied the battle. The Soviet position was built around concentric defenses and pre-sighted fields of fire. The tank part of the Soviet operation came first in the North, outside the salient, striking at Kluge's left wing and threatening Oryol, and then in the south after the collapse of von Manstein's offensive. During the primary German assault, it was concealed anti-tank weapons and mortars that did most of the work (dug-in tanks did constitute some of this), but it wasn't a massive tank battlefield like you might find in World of Tanks, at least during the German offensive. During the Soviet counteroffensive there was probably open-field tank battles, as the Soviets were pressing on stuck/retreating German units, but it wasn't really the epic clashing of armor that the name "Greatest Tank Battle in History" seems to evoke.

 

[vogtmurr]

The climax of Manstein's offensive was Prokhorovka, a tank on tank battle when the Red Army was forced to commit its operational reserve. I guess if there was an epic clash that would be it. The soviets claimed a victory, but tactically Manstein was further ahead, though he couldn't do much with it..

 

[red_elk]

Lord Baal probably mistook Prokhorovka for entire Kursk battle.

 

[Domen]

And actually the battle of Prokhorovka (or even Kursk as a whole) was not the biggest tank battle of WW2.

The biggest tank battle of WW2 was the battle of Brody in 1941 (23 - 29 / 30 June).

And - surprisingly - that battle was probably less one-sided than Prokhorovka.

Disproportion of losses was not as huge as at Prokhorovka. Soviets also managed to substantially delay the German advance at Brody. However, the results of Soviet counterattack at Brody could be much more devastating for the Germans if not numerous Soviet mistakes in planning and poor coordination.

But Soviet soldiers at Brody fought bravely and Soviet lower & medium level officers commanded their units rather well.

Battlefield of Brody (alternative name of this battle is Dubno) after the end of combats (German photos):

 

[Lord Baal]

Lord Baal probably mistook Prokhorovka for entire Kursk battle.

Exactly so.

 

[red_elk]

About notable tank battles and "turkey shooting", I have one interesting and less known example.

On 19 August 1941, Lt. Zinoviy Kolobanov's unit consisting of 5 KV-1 tanks ambushed German tank column, destroying 43 tanks without any losses on Soviet side.

At the Battle of Krasnogvardeysk on 19 August 1941 (part of the Battle of Leningrad), Kolobanov's unit ambushed a column of German armour. The vanguard of the German 8th Panzer Division was approaching Krasnogvardeysk (Gatchina) near Leningrad (St Petersburg), and the only Soviet force available to stop it consisted of five well-hidden KV-1 tanks, dug in within a grove at the edge of a swamp. KV-1 tank no. 864 was commanded by the leader of this small force, Lieutenant Kolobanov.
German forces attacked Krasnogvardeysk from three directions. Near Noviy Uchkhoz settlement, the geography favoured the Soviet defenders as the only road in the region passed the swamp, and the defenders commanded this choke point from their hidden position. Lieutenant Kolobanov had carefully studied the situation and readied his detachment the day before. Each KV-1 tank carried twice the normal amount of ammunition, two-thirds being armour-piercing rounds. Kolobanov ordered his other commanders to hold their fire and await orders. He did not want to reveal the size of his force, so only one tank at a time engaged the enemy.
The 8th Panzer Division's vanguard ventured directly into the well-prepared Soviet ambush, with Kolobanov's tank knocking out the lead German tank with its first shot. The Germans assumed that the tank had hit an anti-tank mine, and failed to realize that they had been ambushed. The German column stopped, giving Kolobanov the opportunity to destroy the second tank. Only then did the Germans realize they were under attack, but they were unable to locate the source of the shots. While the German tanks fired blindly, Kolobanov knocked out the trailing German tank, boxing in the entire column.

Although the Germans finally guessed the direction of fire, they could only spot Lieutenant Kolobanov's tank, and now attempted to engage an unseen enemy. German tanks bogged down when they moved off the road onto the surrounding soft ground, becoming easy targets. 22 German tanks and two towed artillery pieces fell victim to Kolobanov's No. 864 before it ran out of ammunition. Kolobanov ordered in another KV-1, and 21 more German tanks were destroyed before the half-hour battle ended. A total of 43 German tanks were destroyed by just five Soviet KV-1s (two more remained in reserve). Lieutenant Kolobanov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner, while his driver, Andrei Usov, was awarded the Order of Lenin.

The Soviet victory was the result of a well-planned ambush on advantageous ground and with technological superiority. Most of the German tanks in this battle were Panzer IIs armed with 20 mm guns, with a few Panzer IIIs armed with 37 mm KwK 36 L/46.5 guns. The German tank guns had neither the range nor the power of the 76 mm main gun of a KV-1, and the narrower track width of the German tanks caused them to become trapped in the swampy ground. After the battle, the crew of No. 864 counted a total of 135 hits on their tank, none of which had penetrated the armor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinoviy_Kolobanov

Lieutenant Kolobanov's crew:

Tank KV-1:

 

[vogtmurr]

Pretty unlucky Mk IIs and IIIs that ran into those dinosaurs. What was the armour on a KV-1 ?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

70mm. That they were IIs and IIIs made it merely a game for the KV-1's. Not that a Panzer IV could have done much better, as the Germans horrifyingly discovered during the Battle of Brody in 1941.

 

[Domen]

Pretty unlucky Mk IIs and IIIs that ran into those dinosaurs.

Mk IIs yes, but Mk IIIs couldn't be there - there were only Mk 38(t)s with similar 37mm guns:

Tank strength of 8. Panzer-Division (Panzer-Regiment 10.) on 22.06.1941 (start of the invasion of Russia) was:

11 Pz-I
49 Pz-II
118 Pz-38(t)
30 Pz-IV
7 PzBef-38(t)
8 PzBef

Total 223 tanks.

As you can see this division had mostly Czechoslovakian tanks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_38(t)

And here is the data on casualties, replacements & strength of the division in period 22.06.1941 to 10.09.1941:

As you can see in this period the division received no tanks as replacements.

Casualties amounted to 69 tanks of which 33 were repairable and 36 were total losses.

So I guess that the bulk of these casualties was suffered on 19 August 1941 (?).

Battle casualties in men (killed, wounded, missing) of the division during August 1941 were reported as:

1 - 10 August 1941: 6 KIA, 34 WIA, 3 MIA
11 - 20 August 1941: 85 KIA, 310 WIA, 2 MIA
21 - 30 August 1941: 94 KIA, 331 WIA, 4 MIA

Total during August 1941: 185 killed, 675 wounded, 9 missing.

.

 

[red_elk]

How it could look like - the photo of another KV-1, Lt. Konovalov's tank after battle on 13 July 1942:

 

[Domen]

There was a similar episode - but with Char B1 Bis tank - during the battle of France, near Stonne:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Billotte

Pierre Armand Gaston Billotte (1906–1992) was a French Army officer and politician. (...) Billotte is known for his extraordinary actions on 16 May 1940 at the French village of Stonne. Billotte served in the 1st Compagnie of the 41st Tank Battalion, equipped with the Char B1 heavy tank. Then-Captain Billotte, commanding a Char B1 Bis tank nicknamed "Eure", was instrumental in capturing the village of Stonne, defended by elements of the German 8th Panzer Regiment. The village had already been the scene of fierce fighting before Billotte's action, having changed hands for numerous times and lying on a strategic location on the road to Sedan. On 16 May, while under heavy fire from German tanks, Billotte and his B1 Bis managed to break through the German defences and to destroy two German PzKpfw IV tanks, eleven PzKpfw III tanks and two enemy [Anti-Tank] guns. Billotte's Char B1-Bis tank received 140 hits from enemy tanks and guns, but none were able to penetrate the tank's heavy armour.

http://www.generals.dk/general/Billotte/Pierre-Armand-Gaston/France.html

I believe there are photos showing his tank soon after the battle somewhere in the internet.

 

[red_elk]

Found the information about Lt. Konovalov's battle.
Tank was being repaired in Mityakinskoe village (Rostov region), on July 13, 1942, when column of 55 German tanks approached the village. The crew of motionless tank decided to fight (!), and managed to destroy 16 German tanks and 2 armoured cars, before KV-1 was destroyed by 105-mm artillery piece from the distance of ~75 m. Two crew members, including Konovalov managed to escape and later, he was awarded with Hero of the Soviet Union title.

 

[Domen]

Regarding the previous discussion about people (both Poles, Ukrainians and Belarussians) in pre-1939 eastern regions of Poland (i.e. Soviet Western Ukraine and Western Belarus) greeting Germans as liberators in June of 1941. Translation of what was written on a Polish forum:

In "Mowia Wieki" an article saying how people were building triumphal arches for the entering German army in June of 1941 was published:

http://tygodnik.onet.pl/35,0,64822,1,artykul.html

Due to known reasons, nobody had been writing about this and researching this before. Paradox of history - those who built the gate for the German army in 1941 could later built a similar gate for the Red Army in 1944.

And this is true. My grandmother told me about that. She said that they were greeting Germans entering the Grodno region with bread, salt and flowers. Both Poles and Orthodox people [Belarussians] were joyfully greeting the Germans. Two years of Soviet rule showed everyone what in fact is Bolshevism. Moreover, my grandfathers knew (some friendly Soviet militia man warned them) that they were on the list of those who were to be deported. The German invasion saved them. But also - as my grandmother said - they had no illusions that Germans were some kind of St. George on a horse fighting against the dragon. Not at all. They just hoped that the German bulldog after already biting the Soviet bulldog to death, would leave ordinary people alone and would not - like "Russkies" after September of 1939 - start to intrude into every element of people's life. Another issue is that illusions regarding Germans vanished very quickly, but still nobody was greeting the Red Army in 1944 with joy. Brothers of my grandmother didn't come out of the forest.

 

[red_elk]

Don't know what these hearsays supposed to prove.
Vast majority of Belorussians were pro-Soviet anyway. Forceful polonization of that land before 1939 and German atrocities in 1941-1944 turned more Belorussian people to be pro-Soviet than any bolshevik propaganda could ever turn.

 

[Domen]

There was no "forceful polonization" of that land before 1939.

If there had been any forceful polonization, that land would have been already 100% polonized in 1939 - after 20 years of Polish rules.

Especially that Belarussian peasants did not have any strong national identity in 1920s & 1930s - as the number of "locals" proves.

And Belarussians as you can see were not pleased with the way Soviet authorities ruled there in 1939 - 1941.

nd German atrocities in 1941-1944 turned more Belorussian people to be pro-Soviet than any bolshevik propaganda could ever turn.

Yes, absolutely true, but that was only after the German invasion.

And in June 1941 many Belarussians greeted the Germans with hope for better future than under Soviet rule during the previous 2 years.

In fact not commiting as massive crimes as Germans was the only advantage of Soviet rule over Nazi rule.

Don't know what these hearsays supposed to prove.

Hmmm, nothing really. Is everything supposed to prove something ???

 

[red_elk]

There was no "forceful polonization" of that land before 1939.
If there had been any forceful polonization, that land would have been already 100% polonized in 1939 - after 20 years of Polish rules.

Only in case if Poles committed genocide there. Luckily they didn't.

And Belarussians as you can see were not pleased with the way Soviet authorities ruled there in 1939 - 1941.

As I can see from somebody's grandmother recollections, posted on some Polish forum, reposted and translated here by you?
Sounds like a good data source for historical article

And in June 1941 many Belarussians greeted the Germans with hope for better future than under Soviet rule during the previous 2 years.
In fact not commiting as massive crimes as Germans was the only advantage of Soviet rule over Nazi rule.

No matter if you like it or not, the Soviet government was considered as legitimate power by great majority of Soviet people from 1920-s until 1980-s. Especially by people who were culturally close to Russians (Belorussians, East and South Ukrainians). This is why bolsheviks were able to take power and win civil war in the first place. And that's why the USSR didn't collapse after first months of war in 1941.

There was some German collaboration in Belorussia, but it was negligible in comparison to resistance, which started very early in Summer 1941.
Already in August there were hundreds of partisan detachments - I suppose that were the people who greeted Nazis with bread and salt?

Hmmm, nothing really. Is everything supposed to prove something ???

Your message (granny's recollections) as a source of historical information means precisely nothing.

 

[MobBoss]

About notable tank battles and "turkey shooting", I have one interesting and less known example.

On 19 August 1941, Lt. Zinoviy Kolobanov's unit consisting of 5 KV-1 tanks ambushed German tank column, destroying 43 tanks without any losses on Soviet side.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinoviy_Kolobanov

Lieutenant Kolobanov's crew:

Just as an FYI, they actually have a medal named after this guy (Kolobanov's Medal) in World of Tanks online. They also have one for Billotte as well, and just about one for every famous tanker of WWII.

 

[Domen]

As I can see from somebody's grandmother recollections, posted on some Polish forum, reposted and translated here by you?
Sounds like a good data source for historical article

Your message (granny's recollections) as a source of historical information means precisely nothing.

Not "grandmother recollections" but this article:

http://tygodnik.onet.pl/35,0,64822,1,artykul.html

And what's there in this article is only confirmed by those "grandmother recollections" and many other sources.

No matter if you like it or not, the Soviet government was considered as legitimate power by great majority of Soviet people from 1920-s until 1980-s. Especially by people who were culturally close to Russians (Belorussians, East and South Ukrainians).

Western Belarussians and Western Ukrainians were not "Soviet people" before 1939.

This is why bolsheviks were able to take power and win civil war in the first place.

No - they won because people hated Tsar and they believed in bolshevik propaganda of "better lives" - which didn't turn out to be true.

Later - when many people already realized that bolshevik promises were just lies - they kept power thanks to strong apparatus of terror.

And also thanks to very efficient propaganda machine, which still managed to keep many conviced, that the USSR was a paradise.

But overall, bolshevik rules did not turn out to be better than Tsarist rules.

And that's why the USSR didn't collapse after first months of war in 1941.

No - mainly thanks to Stalin & state-sponsored propaganda changing their rhetoric (from bolshevik: "fight for Communism", to nationalistic: "fight for your Motherland Russia"). And also thanks to NKVD terror à la: "no step back or you will be shot" and ruthlessness for "cowards" and deserters.

You know how many Red Army soldiers were executed for desertion during WW2? You certainly know.

the Soviet government was considered as legitimate power by great majority of Soviet people from 1920-s until 1980-s.

Hard to not consider something a legitimate power if you realize that this power can arrest you for anything and do with you what it wants.

If any Soviet citizen tried to deny legitimacy of that power, he was being immediately arrested as "enemy of the state" or "political offender".

And legitimacy is also via efficiency. Because any revolutionary government becomes legitimate via efficiency.

Efficiency is the main prerequisite for recognition of a government in international law.

Because denying something efficiently existing = denying political reality.

There was some German collaboration in Belorussia, but it was negligible in comparison to resistance

What about collaboration of local peasants in German pogroms of Jewish people in Ukraine and Belarussia ???

Already in August there were hundreds of partisan detachments - I suppose that were the people who greeted Nazis with bread and salt?

I suppose that were not local inhabitants, but mainly Russians and other nationalities of the Red Army.

I suppose that were remnants of cut-off and destroyed Red Army units which decided to "go underground" as ordered by Stalin.

 

[red_elk]

Not "grandmother recollections" but this article:
http://tygodnik.onet.pl/35,0,64822,1,artykul.html
And what's there in this article is only confirmed by those "grandmother recollections" and many other sources.

The article is about Poles, not Belorussians.
I think you will have hard time, trying to prove that Belorussians massively supported German invasion.
Because they did not.

Western Belarussians and Western Ukrainians were not "Soviet people" before 1939.

I thought, German invasion of USSR started in 1941. Which is after 1939.

No - they won because people hated Tsar and they believed in bolshevik propaganda of "better lives" - which didn't turn out to be true.

In 1917 there was no Tsar already. Bolsheviks won because they had support of great majority of people in Russian Empire.

But overall, bolshevik rules did not turn out to be better than Tsarist rules.

No better - but somehow life expectancy was doubled in a few decades, and after WW2 reached the level of developed countries.
Literacy rate increased from ~20% to almost 100%
Greatly increased industrial output, and as a result the country was able to withstand against the opponent who had virtually all resources of continental Europe.
I can continue, but that's already enough.

You know how many Red Army soldiers were executed for desertion during WW2? You certainly know.

No, how many?
And remind me, what was the policy of treating deserters in wartime in other countries?

What about collaboration of local peasants in German pogroms of Jewish people in Ukraine and Belarussia ???

What about that?
In Western Ukraine it was significant.
In Belorussia - not so much, less than in Poland.

I suppose that were not local inhabitants, but mainly Russians and other nationalities of the Red Army.
I suppose that were remnants of cut-off and destroyed Red Army units which decided to "go underground" as ordered by Stalin.

You suppose wrongly.
There were lots of local inhabitants in partisan detachments, moreover, significant partisan activity is impossible without help from locals.
German terror against civilians was to large extent caused by partisan activity there.
If you don't know, as a result of German occupation in 1941-1944, Belorussia lost 25% of its population.
Belorussia is known as one of the most active "partisan regions" in USSR in WW2.
Probably, because Belorussians were so welcoming to Germans

 

[Junius]

Bolsheviks won because they had support of great majority of people in Russian Empire

Oh i think we need a source on that one.