From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

But no - you continue to claim that Poland wanted to conquer the entire Soviet Union with a "huge army" of 9000 fighting soldiers :crazyeye:
Nice strawman here, but too obvious.
Pilsoudsky's motives were to move Polish-Soviet border to the East and, if possible, create Polish state in similar borders as it was in XVIII century. Civil war and chaos in Russia provided a good opportunity to do that.

As for first battles - we already spoke about this, detachments of Polish army were already in Belorussia (and Lithuania) before first clashes with Bolsheviks. Saying that Poles were defending under Belorussian village Mosty is like saying that Germans were defending side in operation Bagration. Yes, they were, but it doesn't mean they were not aggressors.

Well - the Reds managed to forcefully conscript more men to their army than the Whites.
The Reds conscripted more men because their terror was more efficient. And their terror was more efficient because they managed to conscript more men.
Wait, something wrong here...

Because Bolsheviks started their coup d'état in areas which had most of population.
Do you think any political force "starting coup d'état in most populated areas of Russia" will manage to draft 5 million army, using just terror, without popular support?

Plus international community sympatized with the Whites, not with the Reds.
While for example today international community supports Libyan rebels - not Gaddafi.
Also because Gaddafi is the one whose terror is more efficient.
International community's "sympaties" are based on economical and ideological interests of its members - nobody measures "effectiveness" of Gaddafi's terror, except may be PR specialists and human rights activists. Support of what you call international community to the Whites was based on fear of Entente countries' elites to lose power in case of revolutions in their countries.

I clearly wrote that my statement was refering to German-occupied territories in period IX 1939 - VI 1941.
It means that your statement is irrelevant, since there were Jewish pogroms, committed by Polish population on German-occupied territories.
 
By the way - your literacy figures are for males only, female literacy was smaller - for example 1939:

So average literacy (assuming 50% males 50% females) would be 81,65% in 1939.
Number of 90% was related to RSFSR (not USSR), male and female population.

Likbez, as you can see, just one example of how Bolsheviks regime was "no better" than Imperial Russia.
Poland (according to your message) achieved good results too, but much less impressive.
 
Number of 90% was related to RSFSR (not USSR), male and female population.

Now that is more probable. Because I doubt that 90% of inhabitants of Siberia were literates... Even in 1950.

committed by Polish population on German-occupied territories.

Those were post-Soviet-occupied territories as well. :)

When the Jedwabne pogrom hapenned that area was still a frontline - I doubt German occupation authorities already installed themselves.

Do you think any political force "starting coup d'état in most populated areas of Russia" will manage to draft 5 million army, using just terror, without popular support?

If they had so much popular support why 2 million of those 5 million later deserted?

Pilsoudsky's motives were to move Polish-Soviet border to the East and, if possible, create Polish state in similar borders as it was in XVIII century.

Pilsudski had a federative conception of Poland leading a federation of "buffer" states between Poland and the USSR.

I bet we were already discussing this.

As for first battles - we already spoke about this, detachments of Polish army were already in Belorussia (and Lithuania) before first clashes with Bolsheviks.

Here is the line occupied by Polish forces (orange and red) in mid-February 1919:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=296120&d=1311280239

attachment.php


BTW - how do you define where was the end of Poland and the beginning of Belarus / Lithuania?

There were no any precisely defined borders in the East at that time.

Saying that Poles were defending under Belorussian village Mosty is like saying that Germans were defending side in operation Bagration.

Mosty is very close to the present Polish border.

What were Bolshevik forces doing so far to the west ??? A picnic ??? :)

Do you think any political force "starting coup d'état in most populated areas of Russia" will manage to draft 5 million army, using just terror, without popular support?

They had a group of devoted followers. But how many of them were? Maybe 150,000? Rather not much more.

150,000 is a force which can be used to forcefully conscript the other 4,850,000.

Saying that Poles were defending under Belorussian village Mosty

Did you check ethnic composition of inhabitants of Mosty in 1919?

I didn't find such data yet, maybe you did. But if not then you should be careful in claiming that Mosty was Belorussian.

BTW - the battle was fought somewhere near Mosty, the village itself was in Soviet hands IIRC.

============================================

detachments of Polish army were already in Belorussia (and Lithuania)

Not really Lithuania (see the map above).

BTW - Poland never possesed any considerable part of what is today Lithuania.

Most part of pre-war Wilno Voivodeship consisted of modern Belarussian territory (even though capital of that Voivodeship was Wilno):

This map shows this:

Pink area - pre-1939 Wilno Voivodeship
Red line - the present boundary between Lithuania and Belarus
Blue lines - present borders of states

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Now that is more probable. Because I doubt that 90% of inhabitants of Siberia were literates... Even in 1950.
What you mean by "now"? I said about RSFSR in the original message.

Those were post-Soviet-occupied territories as well. :)
When the Jedwabne pogrom hapenned that area was still a frontline - I doubt German occupation authorities already installed themselves.
What's the point of this message?
Jedwabne case was not a Jewish pogrom, committed by local Polish people?
Or what?

If they had so much popular support why 2 million of those 5 million later deserted?
They had popular support much more than any other group participated in civil war.
I don't know where you got the number of 2 millions - it has to be proven, but number of deserters supposed to be high on any side of that war.

They had a group of devoted followers. But how many of them were? Maybe 150,000? Rather not much more.
150,000 is a force which can be used to forcefully conscript the other 4,850,000.
Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about and trying to speculate.

Pilsudski had a federative conception of Poland leading a federation of "buffer" states between Poland and the USSR.
I bet we were already discussing this.
I bet Belorussia was a part of his conception :)
And I bet that was the plan which he started to implement in 1919, while there was opportunity (civil war in Russia)
Not "invasion of entire Soviet Union" as you said, no.

Here is the line occupied by Polish forces (orange and red) in mid-February 1919:
Nice map.
Though it doesn't answer the question what Polish detachments were doing in Minsk and Vilno couple of months before, in December 1918 - January 1919.

It's interesting how Poles claim that the war started only in mid-February 1919, when they were already driven out of Belorussia.

There were no any precisely defined borders in the East at that time.
Very true. That was a very convenient moment for Pilsoudsky to define that borders as he wanted to.
For Bolsheviks - opening new front in the middle of civil war was a big problem, if not a disaster.

Ironically, Poland in that war fought against the Reds, who were accepting Polish independence.
And in fact helped the Whites, who wanted to restore Russian state in its borders of 1914.
 
What you mean by "now"? I said about RSFSR in the original message.

I thought you was saying about entire USSR not just RSFSR - the most civilized part of USSR.

I don't know where you got the number of 2 millions

I actually copied & pasted the quote and linked my sources... What else should I do?

The source was originally posted by your fellow countryman - Oleg Grigoryev.

Though it doesn't answer the question what Polish detachments were doing in Minsk and Vilno couple of months before, in December 1918 - January 1919.

Wilno had a significant Polish-speaking population - Poles were majority in that city.

If there were any "Polish detachments" in Wilno - they were formed by local population (self-defence units).

In Minsk there were no any "Polish detachments". Can you provide source for this speculation?

It's interesting how Poles claim that the war started only in mid-February 1919, when they were already driven out of Belorussia.

What the heck you write? A pile of rubbish.

Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about and trying to speculate.

You probably confused Poles with the Imperial German Army, which had just withdrawn from Belorussia by February. :p

For Bolsheviks - opening new front in the middle of civil war was a big problem, if not a disaster.

Such a disaster that they managed to advance to the outskirts of Warsaw...

Polish army also already fought on other fronts and opening a new front against Soviet Russia was a disaster for Poland.

Ironically, Poland in that war fought against the Reds, who were accepting Polish independence.

The Reds changed their minds and no longer accepted Polish independence.

Besides - the Whites were accepting Polish independence as well.

And in fact helped the Whites, who wanted to restore Russian state in its borders of 1914.

No - the Whites accepted independent Poland west of the Curzon Line.

What's the point of this message?
Jedwabne case was not a Jewish pogrom, committed by local Polish people?
Or what?

The point was that Jedwabne was commited in the Soviet occupation zone of 1939 - 1941, where the stereotype of "Judeo-Communism" was born.

And the idea of "Judeo-Communism" born during the Soviet rule was the reason of growing anti-Semitism in Jedwabne when Germans came in 1941.

Besides - Jedwabne pogrom was commited by local Poles AND German soldiers, who also encouraged local population by Nazi propaganda.
 
Wilno had a significant Polish-speaking population - Poles were majority in that city. If there were any "Polish detachments" in Wilno - they were formed by local population (self-defence units).
So you agree that before mid-February 1919 there were Polish military formations to the East of Curzon line?

In Minsk there were no any "Polish detachments". Can you provide source for this speculation?
Already did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Lithuanian–Belarusian_Division
It was a volunteer unit of Polish army, under command of Polish army officer.
Participating in Polish-Soviet war in December 1918-January 1919, taking actions in Belorussia.

Such a disaster that they managed to advance to the outskirts of Warsaw...
The Reds had to hastily relocate best units (such as 1-st cavalry army) to the Polish front, to stop Kiev offensive. And the war was lost anyway. So yes, it was a disaster.
Bolsheviks didn't want war with Poland in 1919 - the only thing which they wanted even less, was allowing Poland to seize Belorussia and Western Ukraine.

The Reds changed their minds and no longer accepted Polish independence.
When that happened?
Was there any official document or diplomatic note, stating that members of Soviet government "changed their minds", and were no longer accepting Polish independence?
 
In Minsk there were no any "Polish detachments". Can you provide source for this speculation?

Already did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Lit...usian_Division
It was a volunteer unit of Polish army, under command of Polish army officer.
Participating in Polish-Soviet war in December 1918-January 1919, taking actions in Belorussia.

The wikipedia article you quoted has a note:

"This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2007)"

And it has this note rightly. The Polish wikipedia article about this unit doesn't mention these events:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Dywizja_Litewsko-Białoruska

According to the Polish wikipedia article, Minski Pulk Strzelcow (Minsk Rifle Regiment) was formed in early 1919 and was renamed 86 Pulk Piechoty (86 Infantry Regiment) in 1921:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miński_Pułk_Strzelców

It happens that I've got the history (mini-monograph) of 86 Infantry Regiment written by Wojciech Markert (it is part of entire series of mini-monographs "Brief Military Histories of Polish Regiments in the September Campaign" - but it covers entire history of those regiments, not just 1939).

The regiment was started to be formed on 17 December 1918 and two months later - around 10 February 1919 - it already had regimental HQ, reconnaissance unit (4 rifle companies and one MG company), I battalion and just a few elements of II battalion.

The regiment did not participate in any actions in Belarus in 1918 - it did not participate in any combats before 3 March 1919.

The only thing related to Minsk W. Markert writes there, is:

"(...) Large part of soldiers of the regiment was recruited from former members of Minsk Self-Defence, which broke through the German cordon."


That's why the name of the regiment was Minsk Rifle Regiment.

But certainly Minsk Self-Defence formed by Polish and Belarusian civilian inhabitants of Minsk was never part of the Polish Army.

Further text says:

"On 11 February 1919 due to fast progress of Bolshevik forces in the North-West (inter alia, they captured Wilno on 5 January 1919), first, not yet fully combat ready units of the Lithuanian-Belarusian Division were shifted by trains to the region of Wolkowysk, in order to stop the enemy pressure along the line of rivers Niemen and flowing into it Zelewianka.

Minsk Rifle Regiment was ordered to defend part of this river between farm Zerno and village Podblocie, where it stayed until the end of the month, carrying out reconnaissance actions on direction Slonim. During this time the entire division stiffened enough, that in the first days of March it was able to switch to offensive actions, aimed at pushing the enemy back behind the Szczara river.

As part of this operation on 1 March Minsk Rifle Regiment supported by platoon of 8. pap and platoon of 10. uhlan regiment advanced on Slonim. Two days later the regiment underwent its baptism of fire - thanks to a bravely led assault and encircling maneuver it broke the enemy defensive lines near Slonim and captured the town, chasing the enemy. Large amount of weapons and well stocked storehouses were captured, used to equip the still developing division. (...)"


So you agree that before mid-February 1919 there were Polish military formations to the East of Curzon line?

Units of local Self-Defence formed by local civilians were not Polish military formations. Especially that those units consisted of many nationalities - for example the unit in Minsk had both ethnic Poles and ethnic Belarusians. Similar Self-Defence units were created everywhere in Central and Eastern Europe during that period of unrest. Including Russia. Also during the German Novemberrevolution of 1918 such units were formed all over Germany - also in German-occupied region of Greater Poland (so called Prussian Provinz Posen). Those units consisted of both local Germans and local Poles.

The Self-Defence unit from Minsk - which was formed yet before the end of World War 1 - broke through the German cordon (frontline?) and civilians from this unit later volunteered to be recruited as soldiers of the newly-formed Polish army units in December 1918 - February 1919.

When that happened?
Was there any official document or diplomatic note, stating that members of Soviet government "changed their minds", and were no longer accepting Polish independence?

I don't remember when exactly.

But IIRC yes - there was some diplomatic note.
 
By the way - during the war against the Soviets in 1919 - 1920, Polish forces didn't fight alone but also cooperated with forces of other nations.

For example during the Dyneburg Offensive Poland helped Latvia liberating Latvian city of Daugavpils from Soviet hands:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dyneburg

30,000 Polish and 10,000 Latvian soldiers participated in those combats for Daugavpils.

It was part of the joint Polish-Latvian Operation Winter.

And the 1st Polish-Soviet battle of that war (near Mosty, February 1919) was as the result of the Soviet westward offensive of 1918 - 1919:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_westward_offensive_of_1918–1919

Soviet advance during the "Target Vistula" ("Цель - Висла" / "Pokhod za Vislu") offensive in 1918 - 1919 (until the end of January 1919 I guess):

766px-PL-RU_war_1919_phase_I.svg.png


That westward offensive was codenamed "Target Vistula". Wonder why Soviets codenamed their 1918 offensive "Target Vistula". :)

It certainly means that they didn't have any intention of capturing Poland up to Vistula river and beyond this river yet in 1918... :)

Probably "Vistula" is some small village in Russia and their offensive was aimed at "liberating" that village from the Whites. :lol:

But nooooo - it is certainly not about the Vistula - the biggest river of Central Poland... :mischief:

===============================================

Another interesting thing:

Why did the Soviets occupy almost entire Latvia (except for that small piece of land near Liepaja) and half of Lithuania yet in 1918 and January 1919?

Not mentioning Estonia.

Probably they were just "defending mother Russia against Latvian, Estonian and Lithuanian aggresive invasions". :lol:

Or maybe they didn't recognize the right of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania to be independent ???

But then you can't deny that they invaded these three states and also Poland.
 
The wikipedia article you quoted has a note:
"This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2007)"
I know this from several sources.
The other one is Meltyukhov's book "Polish-Soviet wars"

Units of local Self-Defence formed by local civilians were not Polish military formations. Especially that those units consisted of many nationalities - for example the unit in Minsk had both ethnic Poles and ethnic Belarusians.
You really don't understand?
Nobody cares about ethnicity of soldiers.
1-st Belorussian-Lithuanian division was a unit of Polish army, with Polish commander, receiving orders from Polish government.
What Polish army had been doing in Belarussia and Lithuania in January 1919?

I don't remember when exactly.
But IIRC yes - there was some diplomatic note.
That Bolsheviks "changed their minds" about Polish independence? :)
It would be interesting to see such note.

That westward offensive was codenamed "Target Vistula". Wonder why Soviets codenamed their 1918 offensive "Target Vistula". :)
This codename exists mainly in Polish historiography.
Can you provide the source which confirms that the Soviets indeed used such codename for their operations in 1918?

Or maybe they didn't recognize the right of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania to be independent ???
May be they didn't, not sure about that.
Did they suppose to recognize them?
 
1-st Belorussian-Lithuanian division was a unit of Polish army, with Polish commander, receiving orders from Polish government.
What Polish army had been doing in Belarussia and Lithuania in January 1919?

That division was not in Belorussia or Lithuania in January of 1919.

That division did not even exist in January, as its formation was finished in February.

And it was being formed in territories west of the Bug river - not in Belorussia or Lithuania.

This codename exists mainly in Polish historiography.

Since when Norman Davies is Polish?

"Target Vistula" is not used by Polish historians. Polish historians translated it wrongly as "Operation Vistula".

Besides - Tukhachevsky described that offensive as "An Expedition beyond Vistula".

So even more than just "Target Vistula". Even beyond Vistula.
 
That division was not in Belorussia or Lithuania in January of 1919.
That division did not even exist in January, as its formation was finished in February.
And it was being formed in territories west of the Bug river - not in Belorussia or Lithuania.
The division was created by order N 1132 of Pilsoudsky in November 26, 1918.
Initial core was formed in Minsk, in December 1918.
Another group of volunteers joined the division were the remnants of 2,500 men strong force created in Vilnius in January 1919.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Dywizja_Litewsko-Białoruska
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Lithuanian–Belarusian_Division#Operational_history

The same dates and numbers are given in Meltyukhov's book.
Wiki also gives reference to Polish source Krzysztof Janikula (2004). "Wojna roku 1920 (War of 1920)"
Looks like this information is accurate.

"Target Vistula" is not used by Polish historians. Polish historians translated it wrongly as "Operation Vistula".
Besides - Tukhachevsky described that offensive as "An Expedition beyond Vistula".
So even more than just "Target Vistula". Even beyond Vistula.
Tukhachevsky could not describe offensive of 1918 as "An Expedition beyond Vistula".
Because he didn't advance beyond Vistula in 1918, moreover he did not even participate in that operation.

What he described was his offensive of 1920.
 
The division was created by order N 1132 of Pilsoudsky in November 26, 1918.

Maybe in that order Pilsudski decided that he would form such a division in the future. But certainly it wasn't created on 26 November.

Pilsudski approved organisational project of the division only on 16 December 1918 - nearly one month later.

And one day later - on 17 December 1918 - formation of the division beginned.

Formation process of the division lasted over two months. Divisions are not created in a matter of days (especially one day).

Not in Polish conditions of 1918 - 1919 at least, when there was lack of everything for the brand new army of the few months old state.

Initial core was formed in Minsk, in December 1918.

This information is not accurate.

The division was not formed in Minsk. First of all - only one regiment of this division included former members of Minsk Self-Defence.

But this regiment was not formed in Minsk neither.

It was formed in Poland. Only some volunteers, former members of Minsk Self-Defence, volunteered to this particular regiment of this division in Poland. Before that they broke through the cordon of German forces from Minsk to Poland.

Minsk Self-Defence on the other hand, existed long before December of 1918.

It existed yet before the end of World War 1.

Looks like this information is accurate.
Wiki also gives reference to Polish source Krzysztof Janikula (2004). "Wojna roku 1920 (War of 1920)"

My info is from the monograph of 86 Infantry Regiment mentioned above and it looks more accurate IMO.

These books are generally more accurate regarding such small detailes than more general books describing wider events.

A book on War of 1920 in general is less accurate regarding details from history of just one unimportant unit. Even if wiki references are true.

May be they didn't, not sure about that.
Did they suppose to recognize them?

Same can be said about the Bolsheviks.

Was Germany, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc. supposed to recognize the Bolshevik State?

the remnants of 2,500 men strong force created in Vilnius in January 1919.

They had only first 4 days of January to create any force in Vilnius. Later the city was under Soviet occupation.

Bolshevik forces captured Vilnius on 5 January 1919. So if any force was created there during the first 4 days of January 1919, it was an improvised, ad hoc formed (they had just 4 days to do it) civilian self-defence who wanted to defend their homes and families against the Red terror.

By no means anyone can claim that it was part of the Polish army or even that it was created on the initiative of the Polish army.

Clearly they were simply local inhabitants who decided to raise arms in the face of quickly approaching Bolshevik threat.

And clearly the decision to create it was taken spontaneously in the face of imminent Soviet threat, if it was created in January.

The fact that that force was unable to successfully defend Wilno despite being large (2,500) also proves that they were just civilians.
 
Bolshevik forces captured Vilnius on 5 January 1919. So if any force was created there during the first 4 days of January 1919, it was an improvised, ad hoc formed (they had just 4 days to do it) civilian self-defence who wanted to defend their homes and families against the Red terror.
By no means anyone can claim that it was part of the Polish army or even that it was created on the initiative of the Polish army.

What about this:
Self-Defense Vilnius (Lithuania and Belarus Self-Defense) was established in October 1918 and on 29 December 1918 were included formally in the composition of the Polish Army. It was commanded by General Wladyslaw Wejtko, and chief of staff was Major Stanislaw Bobiatyński.

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samoobrony_kresowe_(1918-1919)

Also incorrect?

Same can be said about the Bolsheviks.
Was Germany, Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, etc. supposed to recognize the Bolshevik State?
Not necessary, it was their decision to make.
Why you are asking?
 
Another interesting thing:

Why did the Soviets occupy almost entire Latvia (except for that small piece of land near Liepaja) and half of Lithuania yet in 1918 and January 1919?

Not mentioning Estonia.

Probably they were just "defending mother Russia against Latvian, Estonian and Lithuanian aggresive invasions". :lol:

Or maybe they didn't recognize the right of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania to be independent ???

But then you can't deny that they invaded these three states and also Poland.

Soviets in those areas declared in favor of the Petrograd Soviet during the Triumphal March of Soviet Power immediately after the October Revolution. Foreign-armed counter-revolutionaries then overthrew those soviets, exiled or executed their members, and proceeded hunting down communists across the country (those who were not were taken care of by the Germans). In the view of Sovnarkom, they were revoltists no different from Kolchak or the Greens, who temporarily controlled rightfully-communist territory. They "invaded" these "countries" to reinstate those soviets.
 
I'm rather split ... when he turned on the Soviets, or when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor bringing the U.S. openly into the war against him (Roosevelt tried and tried but could not get the xenophobic conservatives to recognize WW2 as a fight worth getting in, until Pearl Harbor). The combination of the two are what provided a united front against Germany.

The Brits did not rule their own skies, despite a large and dedicated fighter force; their fighters could not stop the V-2 rockets. The Germans had technological advantages with the rockets, and if they had not had such a strong united front pounding them (especially with U.S. superbombers), they could have reigned supreme as the only power with jet fighters and bombers (if it hadn't been for the massive, broad bombing campaign which only made headway with U.S. involvement). The British empire was in collapse with its global holdings falling much to their disbelief, especially in the Pacific and Indian oceans to the Japanese. Pan-Atlantic shipping from the U.S. was becoming more and more limited and endangered by Nazi submarines.
 
Soviets in those areas declared in favor of the Petrograd Soviet during the Triumphal March of Soviet Power immediately after the October Revolution. Foreign-armed counter-revolutionaries then overthrew those soviets, exiled or executed their members, and proceeded hunting down communists across the country (those who were not were taken care of by the Germans)
The same happened in Finland, IIRC.
In simple words, all Reds there were killed.
 
God, there is so much wrong in this post that I don't know where to begin. It's good to see someone other than Domen and red_elk arguing though.

I'm rather split ... when he turned on the Soviets, or when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor bringing the U.S. openly into the war against him (Roosevelt tried and tried but could not get the xenophobic conservatives to recognize WW2 as a fight worth getting in, until Pearl Harbor). The combination of the two are what provided a united front against Germany.
If the united front against Germany is what you think turned the war against Germany (it isn't) then you should count Yalta as the turning point. It was only afterwards that Stalin stopped threatening a separate peace with Germany.

The Brits did not rule their own skies, despite a large and dedicated fighter force; their fighters could not stop the V-2 rockets.
Say what? The Germans didn't rule their own skies eitherYou're also aware of the fact that the V-2 rockets were not developed until 1944, right? And that the Battle of Britain was long over by then?

The Germans had technological advantages with the rockets, and if they had not had such a strong united front pounding them (especially with U.S. superbombers), they could have reigned supreme as the only power with jet fighters and bombers (if it hadn't been for the massive, broad bombing campaign which only made headway with U.S. involvement).
The only problem being that the V-2 rockets were impossible to aim, and therefore utterly useless in combat. The V-2's were intended as a terror weapon, to frighten the British into surrendering, but the fact is that even a thousand V-2s, all of them hitting London in the same night, wouldn't really have done any damage to the British war machine. As both Axis and Allied bombing raids showed, large-scale bombing of civilian populations - which is all that the V-2 were good for - actually increased a nation's resolve to resist, so the terror bombings of London made the British more likely to resist Germany, not less likely.

As for jet aircraft, again, Germany only developed these very late in the war, and while they were infinitely more useful than the rocket program - or programs, since the V-1 and V-2 were actually produced by different teams using different technology, a prime example of the inefficiency and misplaced priorities of the Nazi regime - and didn't have the factory facilities to mass-produce them without significant re-tooling. The British were also less than a year behind them with this technology, with the first British jets being developed in 1946, after money had been diverted away from them after the war had ended.

So jet aircraft would not have been that significant an advantage for Germany, particularly since Britain's aircraft, while inferior to these new German models, could still be produced in enough quantities that they could shoot down every jet aircraft without seriously threatening British aircraft production. Then there's the simple fact that the Germans didn't have enough fuel for their non-jet aircraft. Where would they get the necessary avgas for use in jets, notoriously fuel-intensive technology?

Assuming that the Germans somehow get their hands on the necessary avgas and re-tool their factories to mass-produce jet aircraft, what difference would that make in forcing Britain out of the war, since even the late-model jet bombers - which were only a design, never actually developed - were only tactical bombers, not strategic heavy bombers, which is what would be needed to destroy the industry of the British Isles? All they could have done would be to repeat the Blitz, which, as you may have noticed, didn't even slow down the British war preparations.

The British empire was in collapse
Really? They didn't even lose India, which had a sizable - and pro-Japanese - independence movement before the war started. Australia and New Zealand became more loyal, and British acquiescence to certain Japanese demands in 1940 - such as unilaterally cutting off their supplies to the Nationalist Chinese and allowing the Japanese to occupy Northern Indo-China - ended in late-1940, a year before US entry into the war against Japan, and months before Soviet entry. This is because Britain, correctly, recognised that they no longer needed to fear Germany as a threat to British independence, and so could risk a war with Japan in the Pacific, even without US involvement - Churchill had the plans drawn up for such a contingency, though they were heavily reliant upon Singapore, which would have proven problematic in the event of war with Japan without US assistance, seeing as how the fortress was proven to be useless in the actual war.

If the UK did fear Japanese encroachment, there was nothing to stop them from sacrificing the Dutch East Indies and giving in to Japanese territorial demands while they were busy with the Germans in Europe, as they did in 1940. Japan was never a serious threat to the British Empire in the East. They were really only a threat to Thailand and the Dutch, and only to the latter because the Netherlands were occupied by Germany, somewhat limiting their capacity to counter-attack.

with its global holdings falling much to their disbelief,
Only Singapore's fall surprised the British, and that was their own stupid fault. For an thalassocracy, Britain had a very incorrect view of the value of an offshore fortress like Singapore. It was useless without possession of at least the Kra Peninsula or Sumatra, preferably both.

especially in the Pacific and Indian oceans to the Japanese.
Name one British possession in the Indian Ocean lost to the Japanese. Don't say Singapore, since in isn't in the Indian Ocean (nor the Pacific, for that matter, though that's immaterial to this discussion). As for Burma and Malaya, they were overrun through the overland route by the IJA, not by the IJN.

Pan-Atlantic shipping from the U.S. was becoming more and more limited and endangered by Nazi submarines.
No it wasn't. The U-boat threat has been vastly exaggerated by later-generations (though, to be fair, it was also exaggerated at the time). The German U-boats were counteracted effectively by the convoy system, and the wolfpacki method of coordinated U-boat attacks, while effective in sinking tonnage, allowed for far less coverage in the Atlantic, actually allowing more ships to slip through German lines. In order to sink more raw tonnage, the Germans would need to produce more U-boats, and they didn't have the capacity to do so without forsaking some other area of production. And here is where we get to the real problem with Germany's war effort.

Even after Speer's impressive streamlining and rationalisation of Germany's war production in the latter half of the war, Germany still didn't have the production capacity to produce all the transport vehicles it required, let alone weaponry. Their troops could never keep up with the armoured advance, even those on horseback in the Eastern Front, and Rommel could barely feed his troops in North Africa. Then there's the problem of fueling all those tanks, planes and submarines. Even during the Battle for France, German columns ran out of fuel and had to wait for re-fueling trucks to catch up before they could continue their advance. This problem plagued the Germans throughout the war: Heinz Guderian's advanced scout claimed to be within sight of the Kremlin when their tanks ran out of fuel during Operation: Barbarossa.

The Germans didn't have the raw materials to construct everything they needed, because every U-boat that was constructed meant some tanks weren't, and for every jet they built towards the end of the war they couldn't build small-arms, etc.. Even if Germany could have built all the U-boats they needed to strangle off British supplies, they'd have to do so at the expense of something else. That was the real death-knell of Germany: supply and production. And it was a problem that the British, despite their desperation in the winter of 1940, didn't have. They had all the raw materials they could ever need, and their manufacturing base was in Northern Britain, where the German's best bombers were never able to reach. Even if they never invaded Europe, they could simply defeat the Germans in a war of attrition. Then they could turn their attention to Japan, which was bogged down in China, let alone if they'd really turned their eyes towards India. The British could have won WWII on their own. It simply would have taken them longer. The Soviet and US entries into the war merely sped it up.
 
Only Singapore's fall surprised the British, and that was their own stupid fault.

I tend to think the Japanese had something to do with it.

[guffaw]

Then there's the problem of fueling all those tanks, planes and submarines. Even during the Battle for France, German columns ran out of fuel and had to wait for re-fueling trucks to catch up before they could continue their advance. This problem plagued the Germans throughout the war: Heinz Guderian's advanced scout claimed to be within sight of the Kremlin when their tanks ran out of fuel during Operation: Barbarossa.

You're completely right but this isn't the best example. Running out of fuel before the Soviet counter-attack meant the German lines were too far away to be annihilated, so that was an incidentally bizarre stroke of good luck for the Axis.
 
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