Frustrated with immortal

[antimony]

Opened it again and you're right, the amount of forest around the capital is kinda shocking. Not sure what I was thinking. I guess sometimes maintenance becomes an issue when I chop out a lot of units and settlers early. But I guess as long as I get Pottery before expanding it should be fine?

It's probably fine to have 3-4 cities before starting to seriously build cottages, depends on map of course. Especially when you start building those in your capital, it can't really focus on settlers and workers anymore (except occasional whip, maybe?) so you want other cities around to either make settlers and workers or share cottages with capital (switch them from city to city so they always grow).

For maintenance before pottery, settle close to cap with trade routes, take advantage of commerce on water tiles especially lakes if you can to boost commerce.

 

[jorissimo]

It's probably fine to have 3-4 cities before starting to seriously build cottages, depends on map of course. Especially when you start building those in your capital, it can't really focus on settlers and workers anymore (except occasional whip, maybe?) so you want other cities around to either make settlers and workers or share cottages with capital (switch them from city to city so they always grow).

For maintenance before pottery, settle close to cap with trade routes, take advantage of commerce on water tiles especially lakes if you can to boost commerce.

Thanks!

 

[jorissimo]

I read the Sury thread @sampsa posted, and realize that's the leader I should play next. Up until now I was following @Henrik75 's leader tier list in descending order, but since my early game is weak, a trait like philosophical won't do a whole lot for me. Better get creative for faster border pops and trade connections and cheaper libraries. Almost too good to be true.

The whipping, chopping and happiness calculations are very compelling but somehow go against some of my instincts. I guess I'm too delicate/conscientious about a lot of stuff that isn't that important.

Btw, the pace of that game is absolutely mind-blowing to me, both @sampsa and @Gunboat Diplomat have 5 cities in 1600 BC! The 1AD screenshots are just wild.

 

[Thrasybulos]

Better get creative for faster border pops and trade connections and cheaper libraries. Almost too good to be true.

If you're trying to improve your early game, may I suggest not picking a Creative leader?

One habit players need to shed when moving up is the one they share with the AI: considering the BFC when chosing city placement instead the first ring only.
Creative is a crutch which allows to keep the old ways.

 

[Gumbolt]

5 cities by 1600bc is not that huge.Grabbing land can be very rewarding assuming it does not kill your tech rate.

 

[jorissimo]

If you're trying to improve your early game, may I suggest not picking a Creative leader?

One habit players need to shed when moving up is the one they share with the AI: considering the BFC when chosing city placement instead the first ring only.
Creative is a crutch which allows to keep the old ways.

When I play non-creative, that is, every leader I played on immortal so far except Willem, I always make sure I have food in the first ring, especially in the early game. So I wouldn't say it's a crutch for me per se but I'm still getting used to the difficulty level so I'm taking things one at a time. But I generally avoid creative precisely because it almost feels like cheating.

 

[Gumbolt]

I will fire up a Sury game using bug and you can compare saves.

Let's see how you handle this.

 

[jorissimo]

I will fire up a Sury game using bug and you can compare saves.

Let's see how you handle this.

Thanks! Don't have too much time these days so I'll be taking it slowly, could do T50, then T100, and then beyond, or maybe even T25, T50 etc.

 

[jorissimo]

I will fire up a Sury game using bug and you can compare saves.

Let's see how you handle this.

I seem to have some compatibility issues with this save. It says I need BUFFY. Which I thought I had installed but apparently not correctly. I think I might have installed it on top of an existing BUG mod, which might be why it's causing trouble. Otherwise I just followed the instructions in this thread. Is that still up to date? In the meantime, could you maybe upload a screenshot of the start so I can already reflect on how to open?

 

[Gumbolt]

I used the Buffy mod. I can try a different save without this? I could upload a save with no mod. Which I did for other thread.

@Whisker any thoughts?

 

[Gumbolt]

CivFanatics - Civilization IV Hall of Fame

Good link for Buffy advice. Has download link too. Entirely safe.

 

[jorissimo]

I used the Buffy mod. I can try a different save without this? I could upload a save with no mod. Which I did for other thread.

@Whisker any thoughts? View attachment 706149

Thanks! I'll try reinstalling BUFFY with the link you sent, if it doesn't work we might try a WB save.

Initial thoughts on the start (no spoilers because I haven't done anything yet): SIP looks pretty good here, I don't think we gain anything by settling on the wine. Tech-wise I would open with agriculture, ignoring the cow for now, and then probably BW. Could farm the wine for early commerce and maybe a second city along the river, so the wheel is not super urgent here. I think the worker should finish farming the corn and double wine just after researching BW, so it won't sit idle. After BW I'm thinking wheel - AH - pottery.

 

[jorissimo]

Oh, there seems to be a strategic resource NE of the scout, most likely horses. That could warrant getting AH ASAP, perhaps right after BW if there's no copper there.

 

[sampsa]

Well, 1W gains 1pt which is quite a lot to give up IMO. True, the possible horse/copper/iron is lost but I think it's less important.

edit: and improves corn+cow 1T later, which is a bigger issue I guess. Still I think I'd lean towards 1W but SIP is certainly fine.

 

[Gumbolt]

So base commerce is normally 8 from palace plus the usual 1 from the city tile.So wine gives you 2 commerce which should speed up techs.

You do get a bonus on workers with your traits. So the cows and mines will help with that. I would certainly move the scout first to see if there is anything you can't see from the above screenshot. East or west?

 

[Whisker]

Extra commerce from settling on wine is tempting, but maybe move scout East first to check if there is seafood at coast?

 

[jorissimo]

So base commerce is normally 8 from palace plus the usual 1 from the city tile.So wine gives you 2 commerce which should speed up techs.

You do get a bonus on workers with your traits. So the cows and mines will help with that. I would certainly move the scout first to see if there is anything you can't see from the above screenshot. East or west?

Right. I can already see everything to the east that will be in my BFC if SIP. On the other hand, I would like to know what's to the west to see if it makes sense to settle on the wine. So scout 1SW, 1W.

 

[jorissimo]

Extra commerce from settling on wine is tempting, but maybe move scout East first to check if there is seafood at coast?

Good point, there might be seafood 3 SE from the starting spot, which would be ruined by SIP.

 

[Gumbolt]

You are thinking about what might happen which is good. Don't let us play the game for you. We should red flag you if you do something silly.

Agricultue is about 10 turns.
AH 11 turns. .BW 15. 36 turns.
Worker is 15 turns. 6 turns for corn. 21 turns. Mine the hill. 6T (Lost MP). Camp is 4 turns. 5T worker idle unless something useful appears.
You could go size 2 settler with corn and mine? Then chop to speed it up. Settler 9 turns or 13 without AH. Chops would reduce settler by 4T

With AH you might go 2nd worker at size 3,Then double chop settler once BW is ready. Worker at size 3 would be 6 turns.Is that better? It would speed up 2nd settler but slow down the first one slightly. With so much forest more workers can't be bad.

See what others think.

 

[sampsa]

Slightly spoily, probably should read only after playing a few turns.

Spoiler :

I went size 2 settler with corn+cow. Usually you need a warrior to settle city number 2, but here you don't, which you will discover quite soon. In general I don't think it's worth growing to work a 4-yield tile, rather start settler sooner to get it out a bit faster.