[RD] Gender is a social construct.

[TruePurple]

But if no one knows what other people mean when they say a word even when they assume they do, that is a problem.

Merica has a right wing conservative party (Democrats) and a extreme right wing conservative party (Republicans) "Progressive" is a word I like to keep for people who really want positive left wing change. Merica "liberal" absolutely does not mean "progressive" the world over. It does tend to mean more Democrat instead of Republican, but still a conservative procapitalist doctrine all the same.

Tho let's please not get too off topic. A issue I bring up in my OP is that trans implies gender is inherent. "Trans" suggests people have male and female brains, which I disagree with.

. And race is more of a social construct than gender and certainly than sex.

Debatable. Both are highly social construct. I think the idea that there is a significant inherent difference in "sexes" is highly overstated and wrong. Most of those differences are social, not biological.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Without definitions discussions fall apart.

 

[Zardnaar]

But if no one knows what other people mean when they say a word even when they assume they do, that is a problem.

Merica has a right wing conservative party (Democrats) and a extreme right wing conservative party (Republicans) "Progressive" is a word I like to keep for people who really want positive left wing change. Merica "liberal" absolutely does not mean "progressive" the world over. It does tend to mean more Democrat instead of Republican, but still a conservative procapitalist doctrine all the same.

Tho let's please not get too off topic. A issue I bring up in my OP is that trans implies gender is inherent. Trans suggests people have male and female brains, which I disagree with.


Debatable. Both are highly social construct. I think the idea that there is a significant inherent difference in "sexes" is highly overstated and wrong. Most of those differences are social, not biological.

People generally know what the conservatives mean when they're throwing around woke, liberal etc. That's all you need. Doesn't matter what the dictionary says.

Trying to win online arguments by being "right" are pointless. People believe what they want and it's about emotion not logic when it comes to societal norms, power, etc.

You xant really use arguments like XYZ is a social construct without realizes everything we do in terms of how society functions is a social construct. NZs different to USA which is different to Greece which us different to Iran.

Idk who's right I'll leave that up to you. I don't even pretend to have the answers. Time will prove who's right or not.

 

[TruePurple]

The premise of "transgender" is that you feel your mind is one gender while your body is another gender. So you transition to a body and identity that matches your "mind gender".

I have a problem with the very idea of a "mind gender" and that implication that gender is very real and not a social construct.

Compared to race, whether you are "allowed" to claim your own racial identity or have one assigned for you, none of that says there is such a thing as a racial mind (with a few minor exceptions mentioned here, but that sounds more like a communal thing) I mean some people might act like there is such a thing as a "black mind" verses a "asian mind" etc. But the implication built in is that human minds are formed by culture/experience. So "transracial" is such a odd concept to some because like no matter how "white" a dark skinned, tightly curled hair,large lipped, person behaviors, they are still "black", they don't need to transition their bodies in order to "behave white". Because what is "white" or "black" behavior is understood to be entirely environmentally and socially decided.

Compare and contrast to "transgender" that say gender is in part biological and inherent.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Male and Female brains function defferently, Transgender people are those whose mind are wired for one gender but their body is the other gender. Since we can't rewire the mind, the only way forward is to change their bodies to match what the mind is.
edit: Brain me not function always.

 

[TruePurple]

Male and Female brains function defferently, Transgender people are those whose mind are wired for one gender but their body is the other gender.

See, that is exactly the premise/claim I am disputing. Also rather what I just said as the thing I am disputing.

 

[amadeus]

That’s not everyone’s situation though. Probably Japan is more rigid than other cultures.

But I don’t know of anyone who has ever claimed to be trans-racial. The question of why isn’t it a thing? Well, it isn’t, so it it’s not.

And hoodoggy I got enough stress, so I’m not going to be the one to ask if there are measurable differences between races like those we perceive with sex. Not touching that. No way. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

 

[TruePurple]

But I don’t know of anyone who has ever claimed to be trans-racial.

Well the person mentioned earlier that I looked up on wiki claimed to be trans-racial. I'm sure they aren't the only one though probably a minority. I think part of it is that unlike "transexual", society has overall not accepted the concept. So who would want to walk on that landmine. Especially if it resulted in accusations of racism or race betrayal.

But there are so very many people in this world who struggle with racial identity, even if they don't specifically use the term "trans-racial".

if there are measurable differences between races like those we perceive with sex.

Since race is often decided by physical characteristics which has to do in large part with genetics, it can vary. Like asians being much more likely to not be able to handle milk or the much higher chance of the genetic disorder sickle cell enamie among black people

Anyway you are coming at it from the wrong end. It's not about measuring differenced between "races" but there not being so many differences between male and female, especially mentally. The topic is not about race or transracial. It's about gender being a social construct. Any discussion of the former is in service of the discussion of the latter.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Lol mmkay.

But yeah gender studies is still a fantasy. So I'm off now. Mission accomplished lol.

You didn’t define man and woman objectively according to philosophy, so mission failed actually.

There are places in the world where homosexuality and acting outside gender norms can get you jailed or killed. But do have some allowance(not general social acceptance, just less bigotry and illegality) for people transitioning to the gender they behave as, since the important thing to them is the gender norm traditions.

The only place where this is true is Iran. Unless you live in Iran it is not relevant to this conversation.

A "male" acting like a "female" should, is a serious problem to some. If you can declare yourself and "transition" to "female" and act like a "female", you are much less of a challenge to gender norms.

A key part of traditional gender is that it is immutable - that it is impossible to change from male to female or vice-versa or be something different entirely. Trans people actively challenge that assumption.

I must reiterate - you seem to have a few mistaken beliefs about this subject. You seem to think that trans people face less hostility than gender non-conforming cis people. This is false. You also seem to think that trans people are hostile towards gender non-conforming cis people. This is also false.

I must reiterate - you seem to have a few mistaken beliefs about this subject. You seem to think that trans people face less hostility than gender non-conforming cis people. This is false. You also seem to think that trans people are hostile towards gender non-conforming cis people. This is also false.

The two sticking points that we have essentially, when we boil everything else away, is what I quoted and your refusal to respect others’ pronouns. This thread will go in circles until we address at least one of those two things.

The whole brain thing is a sideshow. I am not a brain scientist, IDK how brains work. It also doesn’t matter, people should respect us regardless of how our brains work.

 

[Kyriakos]

But I don’t know of anyone who has ever claimed to be trans-racial. The question of why isn’t it a thing? Well, it isn’t, so it it’s not.

And hoodoggy I got enough stress, so I’m not going to be the one to ask if there are measurable differences between races like those we perceive with sex. Not touching that. No way. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

There are (literally) endless millions of people who, it can be said, are trans-ethnic, in that they came to identify as part of a specific ethnicity while perhaps they were not that scientifically (from dna). And it is so prevalent because it is completely natural: if your family lived in a country forever, and you identify as that ethnic group (say it is a dominant one, which often exists in european countries), it won't matter to you if dna says you may be of a different ethnic group, since you don't feel that way.
A "reality" (whether current tech allows it to be established as existing or not - in the case of ethnic groups, sexuality etc) is in all such cases deeply personal and subjective.
Problems arise when people think their own view/sense (regardless of where it stands in a debate) can be realistically replacing the other views. And a facet of that will is the (currently futile) plea to a scientific backing of the view.

If the discussion about ontology and the mind had any role to play in the thread, it was that such tech won't be here for a long, long time - if it will ever be here. Another way of saying that when such tech is available, the human societies will be so far into the future that they won't resemble our own very much.

 

[Perfection]

I'd rather be curb stomping gender norms to the ground than conforming to them like both sides seem to.

Conservatives want gender roles
Trans folk want gender expression

Here is a handy visual aid

 

[NinjaCow64]

Can confirm I go “not hehe” when I think about restrictive gender roles

 

[TruePurple]

Conservatives want gender roles
Trans folk want gender expression

Here is a handy visual aid

It would be more like two cat carriers linked together for the cats to decide which cat carrier they want to be in or maybe they want to be real rebels and be in the middle somewhere. It rarely seems to question the cages themselves.

A key part of traditional gender is that it is immutable - that it is impossible to change from male to female or vice-versa or be something different entirely. Trans people actively challenge that assumption

Almost solely challenge that assumption and nothing else seems visibly challenged. Your words are almost a repetition of my analogy of Perfections analogy of two cat carries linked together facing each other where cats can go from one carrier to the other or site in the middle.

 

[Perfection]

It would be more like two cat carriers linked together for the cats to decide which cat carrier they want to be in or maybe they want to be real rebels and be in the middle somewhere. It rarely seems to question the cages themselves.

I don't know which trans folks you know but the ones i know are always questioning the cage lol

 

[TruePurple]

The two sticking points that we have essentially, when we boil everything else away, is what I quoted and your refusal to respect others’ pronouns. This thread will go in circles until we address at least one of those two things.

This is extremely dishonest phrasing. Using a gender neutral pronoun for everyone is way sufficient for respecting someones philosophy and theories of gender. If you expect me to remember a bunch of different pronouns for each person, then you become a kind of language police. This inane idea is a good way to piss people off. Aim for gender neutral pronouns, let go of the rest. It doesn't do any good. It's like someone looking for a excuse to be offended. The conservatives do that enough on their own, don't copy them.

trans people face less hostility than gender non-conforming cis people.

In some places and circumstances, it is absolutely true.

trans people are hostile towards gender non-conforming cis people

No, you just make a big stink about which gender role you going to fit in and say that gender is inherent part of nature. Most trans don't direct hostility towards nonconformists. But you sometimes create a hostile environment, especially when your other side, the western conservative tugs on the other side of that same coin/rope.

How can anyone find enough metaphorical oxygen to discuss combined gender sports for example, when two sides are both arguing nonstop about whether people can be a different gender than their genitalia.

I don't know which trans folks you know but the ones i know are always questioning the cage lol

People really questioning the cage wouldn't sweat pronouns or changing parental given names etc. These are ways to say you belong in the other cage, not that the cage is a false trap to begin with.

The very basic premise of "transgender" is a cage premise. It says there gender is real, that some people have one gender mind and it's not "wired" for the other body. This premise that "gender is real" not a social construct, biological, is a cage concept.

 

[sophie]

lmao my man has simply not actually spent any time around trans people.

But more to the point, a foundational component of patriarchy is that each cat is placed in a carrier not of their choosing and permanently locked. The trans person, and in particular the trans woman, knows the bars to be illusory and chooses to sit where they please. This simple fact, that we transgress the bars and choose our place - even when the place we choose is one of the opened boxes, is a deeply radical and illicit act, one for which we experience violence every day.

Put simply, if we trans women were simply reinforcing, rather than transgressing, gender norms, then the oppression we would experience would be the same misogyny any cis woman experiences, rather than the distinctive trans misogyny we actually experience.

 

[Perfection]

People really questioning the cage wouldn't sweat pronouns or changing parental given names etc. These are ways to say you belong in the other cage, not that the cage is a false trap to begin with.

The very basic premise of "transgender" is a cage premise. It says there gender is real, that some people have one gender mind and it's not "wired" for the other body. This premise that "gender is real" not a social construct, biological, is a cage concept.

names and pronouns are gender expression not gender roles they go in the carboard box not the cage.

 

[TruePurple]

lmao my man

Assuming a gender and placing me in that role, I see.

Put simply, if we trans women were simply reinforcing, rather than transgressing, gender norms, then the oppression we would experience would be the same misogyny any cis woman experiences,

Just like with Protestants and Catholics or Sunni and Shai, despite your many similarities you disagree on key irreconcilable points.

In this case you disagree that gender is transmutable. Someone seeing a transwoman sees a man taking a females gender role, not a "female". But you both believe in a natural real "gender". Which makes anti-trans that give you hate and trans people that embrace the concept closer together than me who believes gender itself is only a fictious social concept, they are very far from.

names and pronouns are gender expression not gender roles they go in the carboard box not the cage.

They are labels for what cage you belong to that deputes what cage was assigned to you. it doesn't dispute the cages themselves.

If people who were sent to prison having commited no crime spent all their time saying they should have been thrown into a different prison, and wearing the clothes of that other prison and identifying themselves as belonging to that prison instead, rather then disputing being in prison itself.

Let's stretch the analogy even further. Let's say there was no real prison. No walls or bars. They just put you in a area, gave you some clothes to wear and said you are imprisoned in X prison. There are two such socially constructed prisons. If you leave that area they may attack you for not being in your assigned prison. If you don't wear the right clothes they will attack you for being out of uniform. You say you belong in a different prison. That your brain is wired to be in the other prison and wear another prisons clothes. I say the prisons imaginary.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Assuming a gender and placing me in that role, I see.

Do you get how hypocritical it is to refuse to gender people correctly and then get mad when you are misgendered?

 

[Perfection]

They are labels for what cage you belong to that deputes what cage was assigned to you. it doesn't dispute the cages themselves.

If people who were sent to prison having commited no crime spent all their time saying they should have been thrown into a different prison, and wearing the clothes of that other prison and identifying themselves as belonging to that prison instead, rather then disputing being in prison itself, that is sometimes somewhat how transgender looks to me.

before you go off saying what is or isn't in the cage, how about you tell us what you think it feels like to be in the cage?