[RD] Gender is a social construct.

[NinjaCow64]

This is extremely dishonest phrasing. Using a gender neutral pronoun for everyone is way sufficient for respecting someones philosophy and theories of gender.

Wrong. Just wrong.

If you expect me to remember a bunch of different pronouns for each person, then you become a kind of language police

“I can’t be bothered to remember everyone’s name so I am going to refer to everyone as Steve. Nobody will find this disrespectful.”

This inane idea is a good way to piss people off. Aim for gender neutral pronouns, let go of the rest. It doesn't do any good. It's like someone looking for a excuse to be offended. The conservatives do that enough on their own, don't copy them.

Cis people are capable of remembering others’ pronouns. Its so easy. Trivially easy.

In some places and circumstances, it is absolutely true.

Where?

How can anyone find enough metaphorical oxygen to discuss combined gender sports for example, when two sides are both arguing nonstop about whether people can be a different gender than their genitalia.

Do you really think that trans people want to talk about sports so much? I certainly don’t. The only reason that its a news article is because the anti-trans side keeps using the issue to try and criminalise our existence.

 

[TruePurple]

Do you get how hypocritical it is to refuse to gender people correctly and then get mad when you are misgendered?

I can't possibly misgender people if I am using a gender neutral pronoun. The very concept of a gender neutral pronoun is that it makes no claims on gender.

Just like if I call a female doctor "doctor" I am not "misgendering them", since "doctor" doesn't describe a gender.

As far as Schl, I was just pointing out a bit of hypocrisy. You can't "misgender" me, since I don't believe I or anyone else has a gender!

 

[Perfection]

As far as Schl, I was just pointing out a bit of hypocrisy. You can't "misgender" me, since I don't believe I or anyone else has a gender!

I believe you're merely adopting this position to piss off trans people and actually don't give a crap about how anyone feels

 

[TruePurple]

before you go off saying what is or isn't in the cage, how about you tell us what you think it feels like to be in the cage?

It sucks. But as someone who rejects the cage, I don't mind it too much. the cage is fictiousous so I don't actually need to be in it. I just need to come to terms that some people will mistreat me for not being in it.

 

[sophie]

In this case you disagree that gender is transmutable. Someone seeing a transwoman sees a man taking a females gender role, not a "female". But you both believe in a natural real "gender". Which makes anti-trans that give you hate and trans people that embrace the concept closer together than me who believes gender itself is only a fictious social concept, they are very far from.

I say again. If this were all that were happening socially, then we would be experiencing something like the homophobia a gay man experiences for adopting a more feminine presentation or affect. Instead what we experience is transmisogyny.

Which is to say we are seen and treated as women, we experience the same violence, animosity, and condescension every other woman experiences, while at the same time being repeatedly told that we are not women.

The treatment we receive at the hands of the
patriarchy for being simultaneously women and trans is unique and distinct. It cannot be slotted neatly into homophobia, misogyny, or transphobia. Every trans woman experiences it, knows how it feels, and recognizes it immediately. Any claim you make needs to account for this phenomenon.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I can't possibly misgender people if I am using a gender neutral pronoun. The very concept of a gender neutral pronoun is that it makes no claims on gender.

You literally contradict yourself in this very post:

As far as Schl, I was just pointing out a bit of hypocrisy. You can't "misgender" me, since I don't believe I or anyone else has a gender!

You are misgendering because you don’t respect our genders, which is incredibly rude.

If you don’t want to uphold the social contract to show us politeness, why do you get so upset when others refer to you as a man or a he? We are showing you just we much respect as you are showing to us.

 

[Kyriakos]

In the middle of all this chaos, it'd be nice if people realized that using the same word the other person uses, in no way means you have formed it as the same.
From this follows also that there is no possibility of two people having the exact same thing in mind, despite on the surface appearing to defend the same position. There's no way the different individual substrata variables that converge to form the notion are less numerous than the few billions of individual people we have, so the pigeon hole principle alone would tell you it's almost certainly a dream to think you are defending the same thing as your supposed fellow member of a group, and not something very personal and specific.

Not that a will to define things has ever stopped people from pointless bickering

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Please keep this civil. There is no need for personal attacks. Thanks.

 

[NinjaCow64]

I believe you're merely adopting this position to piss off trans people and actually don't give a crap about how anyone feels

Its that or xey’re having a gender crisis and xey’re taking it out on trans people.

Which frankly skill issue, when I had a gender crisis I didn’t act like a [rude word] to others.

 

[TruePurple]

You literally contradict yourself in this very post:

"I can't possibly misgender people if I am using a gender neutral pronoun. The very concept of a gender neutral pronoun is that it makes no claims on gender."

"As far as Schl, I was just pointing out a bit of hypocrisy. You can't "misgender" me, since I don't believe I or anyone else has a gender!"

Sigh, it doesn't allow quotes within quotes. How are these contradictory? I don't believe in gender. Gender neutral pronouns make no statement about gender so couldn't possibly "misgender" someone.
Just like you can't "misgender" someone by calling them "doctor".

That you also can't really misgender someone because gender doesn't even really exist is a separate layer of this conversation. I was only talking about myself in that layer of the conversation as well.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Just like you can't "misgender" someone by calling them "doctor". That you also can't really misgender someone because gender doesn't even really exist is a separate layer of this conversation.

Dude, if you really believe that then why do you get so mad when we refer to you in a masculine manner?

 

[Birdjaguar]

In the "olden days" we added Ms. as a way to avoid using Miss or Mrs. It was neutral to the woman's marital status, kept folks from making a mistake and it was quickly adopted as a smart move.

"Often it is better to be approximately correct than precisely wrong."

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'm going to bed; ya'll be nice!

 

[Perfection]

It sucks. But as someone who rejects the cage, I don't mind it too much. the cage is fictiousous so I don't actually need to be in it. I just need to come to terms that some people will mistreat me for not being in it.

So when did you come to first realize you (and everyone else apparently) were agender?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I believe you're merely adopting this position to piss off trans people and actually don't give a crap about how anyone feels

They just want to invalidate trans people, the same kind of person that goes around calling trans women "males", they know the response that they are going to get

 

[Narz]

I think the idea that there is a significant inherent difference in "sexes" is highly overstated and wrong. Most of those differences are social, not biological

How do you know?

Conservatives want gender roles
Trans folk want gender expression

Here is a handy visual aid

Cute cat but I still don't follow.

Both seem to have assumptions about boys and girls.

Wouldn't one be "expressing" a gender role?

If I a boy takes ballet is that expressing feminity?

Can't ballet just be ballet?

In the heterosexual realm I'm a bit wary of people too much obsessed w being masculine or feminine.

Why is it important at all?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

In the heterosexual realm I'm a bit wary of people too much obsessed w being masculine or feminine.

And if that person was a trans woman?

 

[NinjaCow64]

Can't ballet just be ballet?

In an ideal world sure but we live in a society where ballet is seen as feminine.

Trans people existing and desiring the abolition of gender is often presented as a contradiction when it really isn’t. Trans people existing is a radical challenge to patriarchal concepts of gender, as I have repeatedly stated in thread.

We can have a world where ballet is ballet and trans people can exist. In fact, I think it would be impossible for such a world to exist without widespread acceptance of trans people.

 

[Perfection]

Its that or xey’re having a gender crisis and xey’re taking it out on trans people.

Which frankly skill issue, when I had a gender crisis I didn’t act like a [rude word] to others.

I mean when i first confronted my own identity issues (cishet dude, into bdsm, but not pure dom) I did go down some similar lines of reasoning but like I wasn't a ding dong about it.

Then I saw this meme and realized Trans folk got the issue handled properly

 

[soundjata]

I can't help but dive in
Bearing good news actually.

Seems 100% of the posters here agree that we all are striving for freedom.
That is good enough of a premise. As Plato said : "no fighting, no pudding"

Now it seems we are all looking at a different puddings (antagonistic definition for freedom?)

As long as enough brains realize how entangled they are with one another, there will be hope