General Politics Three: But what is left/right?

[Hygro]

For context on this, a typical poll shows that 50% of Jewish Israelis think the IDF is using an appropriate amount of force in Gaza, 43.4% say the IDF is using too little force in Gaza, 2% say they don't know, and 3% say the IDF is using too much force.

So the "progressive half" of Israelis here is actually more like the "progressive 3%." The minority of genuinely progressive Israelis are widely reviled by the Israeli media and politicians, called "auto-antisemites" among other insults.

More than 10% of Americans are progressive, But 90% supported Bush and attacking Afghanistan with a blank war check. I was in the other 10%, a kid but you can see posts here a year later.

97% makes sense, given that they still have hostages, maybe, and they are the enemy. Terrorism makes a population crazy. It goes both ways. I too credit Israel for Hamas's rise. Obviously. 97%, that's a wide buffer to not give a damn what the USA thinks.

Reminder that I was originally one of those criticizing the electoral college.

Yeah! Hence the "wat"? ; ))

 

[Hygro]

And you write like an economics major.

Thank you. But also, lmao.

 

[Crezth]

To put a fine point on it, you write like the people and the discipline that has worked its hardest to destroy the world and salt the earth for the last 35 years, and as odious as Trump is, there's been one person in this thread so far suggesting that Palestine is a weak culture that should be cleansed to strengthen the whole of humanity. Only one.

 

[Hygro]

I didn't say that at all.

 

[Lexicus]

Then stop playing their game and do something productive instead of vote in their stupid fake elections.

The elections are mostly fake, but not entirely (though they sure will be completely fake if the conservatives get their way). I think voting is not mutually exclusive with activism in other spheres. I certainly see my job in the labor movement as far more important than any voting. I just don't talk about my work a whole lot on this website because I try to keep work at work, you know? (I'm also in a union at work and I go to the meetings for our bargaining unit but I'm not a shop steward or anything like that)

I also understand if you think the US labor movement is "fake" in some sense. The unions are not what I wish they were in many respects but they're what we've got.

 

[Hygro]

Incoming the quote where I think some cultures are doing something good, more than others, generalized, and in this case the progressives of Israel, and should be protected from erasure.

But crezth's toxicity knows no bounds. Nevermind the big "economists are bad" link in the other thread is a takedown of Nordhaus, something I posted first. lmao.

 

[Crezth]

I didn't say that at all.

You absolutely did, you coward. Stand by your words and their implications.

I also understand if you think the US labor movement is "fake" in some sense. The unions are not what I wish they were in many respects but they're what we've got.

No no, it's real. As stupid as it is I did gain a little respect for you when you mentioned PSL. Now I'll happily complain about how they're doomed in other respects, but at that point I'd also be inclined to buy you a drink. Feels rude to continue to berate you without doing that.

 

[Lexicus]

Obviously. 97%, that's a wide buffer to not give a damn what the USA thinks.

Yes, but if they don't give a damn what we think, to me that's a pretty slam dunk argument for cutting off the relationship and telling them they're on their own.

 

[Hygro]

You absolutely did, you coward. Stand by your words and their implications.

No, you sad too-talented-for-Musk kekster. You wish it were so. But I do not believe that and no amount of your bile can fake it so.

 

[Crezth]

Incoming the quote where I think some cultures are doing something good, more than others, generalized, and in this case the progressives of Israel, and should be protected from erasure.

Yeah, you said that in the context of like, liberating Palestine. "Yes we can liberate Palestine but what of the progressive Israelis?" What? Like are you saying that a two state solution could wipe out the progressive Israelis? Hang on a minute, is the "culture" you're really trying to protect wholly and utterly described by the umbrella phrase "progressive Israelis?" Because that sounds like an Israeli government demographic category to me, and not something that can actually be said to, you know, objectively exist.

 

[Hygro]

I said that in the context of, there are special things worthy of protection that exist within problematic things that shouldn't be categorically razed, but that would go counter to your narrative that I'm VaultTec.

Yes, but if they don't give a damn what we think, to me that's a pretty slam dunk argument for cutting off the relationship and telling them they're on their own.

That would be the French response to the Iraq War which I will always salute.

 

[Crezth]

I said that in the context of, there are special things worthy of protection that exist within problematic things that shouldn't be categorically razed, but that would go counter to your narrative that I'm VaultTec.

So if that's the angle you're gonna take to defend that opinion, you have to also admit "But honestly I didn't really think about it that hard because I think 'end the apartheid in Israel' means 'kill every Israeli'" and then put on a pointed conical white cap and sit in the corner facing the walls.

Actually going on the Vault-Tec point, you did say it was extra important to make sure "we" didn't lose WW3. Who is we?

 

[Hygro]

There's a lot of ways to end the apartheid that don't mean driving out Israelis from their home. You wouldn't support any of those.

 

[Crezth]

As ever, frustratingly vague. That's the trouble with you liberals, isn't it? Afraid to take a stand. Here's what that looks like:

THE ENTIRE TERRITORY OF ISRAEL AND PALESTINE SHOULD BE REORGANIZED AS THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF THE LEVANT.

Then the people formerly known as Israelis and Palestinians would be equal citizens of Levant. Now that's a solution! And I never had to obliquely suggest some cultures need to be annihilated to do it. See how easy that was? Me: 1, weird hand-wringing liberalism: zero.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

There's a lot of ways to end the apartheid that don't mean driving out Israelis from their home. You wouldn't support any of those.

Who's saying we should drive Israelis out from their home?

 

[Hygro]

As ever, frustratingly vague. That's the trouble with you liberals, isn't it? Afraid to take a stand.

That was like you hiding from the parents and democratic party thread. You know you grew up hating them. You know you saw enough to go, hmm Republicans ARE bad, but you can't undo the visceral conditioning against the other, so like many of you, with the passion of the converted, go for wingnut zealotry. You aren't uh, more leftwing in the meaningful axis but by golly you will stan for Stalin.

It's so crazy the projections. Half the flack I get here is because I'm for things and not just against the other things. And then you come along and are like PLEASE HYGRO WILL YOU PLAY WITH ME? I'm trying, you make it hard.

 

[Crezth]

That was like you hiding from the parents and democratic party thread. You know you grew up hating them. You know you saw enough to go, hmm Republicans ARE bad, but you can't undo the visceral conditioning against the other, so like many of you, with the passion of the converted, go for wingnut zealotry. You aren't uh, more leftwing in the meaningful axis but by golly you will stan for Stalin.

Haha, oh my god, you think I'm here trying to get bitter, not even? Honey, I moved to California because I know people like you don't have the stuff to keep it. This is just me gloating.

It's so crazy the projections. Half the flack I get here is because I'm for things and not just against the other things. And then you come along and are like PLEASE HYGRO WILL YOU PLAY WITH ME? I'm trying, you make it hard.

You literally haven't posted a single concrete claim or made a single expressly articulated argument "for" anything. I know you don't want progressive Israelis to be hurt. The ones who live in Haifa, not the settlements. You get that, right? So that even an ungenerous reading of Palestinian demands - asks, really - shows the only people who'd have to go are the Hilltop Youth. And nobody in Israel likes them anyway.

See? This is what making arguments actually looks like. Not so much that extemporaneous fluff about cultures and value systems and winning WW3. Wait, who's the "we" you want to make sure wins WW3 again? How many deaths does that include? What will that mean for the NASDAQ

 

[Hygro]

Well come in by then.

 

[Crezth]

Where are you, Berkeley? I'm down by the bawrder.

 

[Narz]

Anyway tl;dr if we want to "fix" the Middle East by destroying countries, the one to start with is the US, not Israel.

Typical American ego, everything is US fault