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[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Estebonrober, May 28, 2020.

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  1. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    There is some validity to the idea that the violence is not being targeted as efficiently as it could be. This will always be true, but people's knee-jerk witticisms probably aren't valid

    There is a super difficult cost-benefit analysis. Like, for example, if the rioting spread out of their neighborhoods, would the crackdowns become much more brutal?

    What would the outrage to sympathy ratio become if the rioting moved over to the neighbourhood of the offending officers? Would Trump voters care more about police brutality? Compared to the current rioting.

    Or if members of the community had selectively identified businesses that were racist or owned by racist or had displayed "all lives matter" decals, or whatevs, with the underlying criticisms and benefits of the rioting change?

    We literally don't know, so the criticism that the rioting is hurting their own community it is true, but peaceful protest has only gotten a president that mischaracterizes the black lives matter movement
     
  2. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    If i put a part of my body on your neck and you beg me to let go because you can't breathe and i don't, is it really murder?!

    Asking the incisive questions here
     
  3. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    The I can't breath declaration will cost him dearly with the jury (it better), but still not proof that his intent was to kill. (imho)
    I won't be on the jury so it's only and uniformed opinion.
     
  4. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I haven't actually claimed that violence is inevitable in an unqualified way. I do believe that if we don't succeed in voting the Republicans out, such that the Democrats have effective single-party rule at the federal level and in at least a good number of states, there will be violence. And I think it's most likely to be horrific violence perpetrated by the state.
     
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  5. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I don't agree that it's a laugh, because I don't think it is straightforwardly obvious that he intended to kill the guy, and regardless I think it will be all but impossible to prove in court that he intended to kill the guy.

    I would rather see him jugged on a lesser charge than see him walk because they overreached and couldn't prove what they charge him with.
     
  6. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Didn't vet the source overhard:

    Minnesota

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195

    609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
    (a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

    (b) Whoever, without intent to cause death, proximately causes the death of a human being by, directly or indirectly, unlawfully selling, giving away, bartering, delivering, exchanging, distributing, or administering a controlled substance classified in Schedule I or II, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years or to payment of a fine of not more than $40,000, or both.
     
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  7. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Well at least he's been charged for his actions. Third degree sounds about right based on the above.
     
  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I agree that he should be charged on whatever they think has the best chance of sticking, but in terms of being asked on the forum of CFC whether or not he was willing the kill the man, I think it's obvious that he was. We're not arguing in court here. It is a laugh, because justice is still hollow. Laughter isn't all about levity.

    There's still so far to go (generally speaking, not talking about this one case).
     
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  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Well IMO the "so far to go" actually entails that even hitting cops who do stuff like this with criminal charges is not a real solution. You will not be able to prove everything they do in court (especially given the "blue wall of silence" thing). You have to attack the problem at an institutional level.
     
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  10. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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  11. Colon

    Colon King

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  12. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    Start? When has that been uniquely American or ever not in force? Yes, yes do expect some of that.
     
  13. cardgame

    cardgame Obsessively Opposed to the Typical

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    Nine minutes.
     
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  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Duration doesn't show intent to kill.
    But I don't expect that to play well with the jury either.
     
  15. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    I don't think he cared if he did kill. To me, that is equivalent to conscious intent. As an experienced police officer, he is aware of his own strength, what tactics reap the most consequence, and how fragile or durable human bodies are. He is not in a position to claim ignorance or accident. That leaves direct intent or not caring whether or not a death happens. Is there a reasonable difference between the two?
     
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  16. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    That's what the courts will decide. I'm willing to bet it will be a jury trial so proving intent with 100% surety may be difficult.
     
  17. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Negligence or indifference in a legal sense is not sufficient to show positive intent. The statement "The cop didn't care if Floyd died" is not equivalent to "The cop wanted Floyd dead".
    I don't know how Canadian law works, but in US law going from "Didn't care if Floyd died" to "Wanted Floyd dead" is a very big jump.
    For the record, these are the Minnesota murder statutes (non-relevant sections removed).
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19
    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.185

    The prosecution might up it to Murder2 after investigation, but then the prosecution runs the risk of failing to prove intent to effect death and I don't remember how Minnesota law and trial procedure handles downgrading to lesser charges in jury deliberation. (I'm asking a lawyer friend now.)
    EDIT: The prosecution can nest charges, so if the jury finds murder3 hasn't been met, they may find that manslaughter1 has been shown; and so on down the line.
     
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  18. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    I really could not care less what the law says, given that it's the law that's failed.
     
  19. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Given it is going through the court system, you sort of have to care what the statues say. Plus, the statutes haven't failed. I can't speak to the case law in interpreting the statutes because a) I'm not a lawyer and b) I don't have the interest to go through case law to see how statutes are interpreted.
    Given the discussion is about how the cop is being charged, you have to care what the statutes say and how they define different levels of illegal killings.
     
  20. Synsensa

    Synsensa Deity Retired Moderator

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    Rah asked if we thought the cop intended to kill. So no. I don't have to care about that.
     
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