[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[rah]

So if I called a person with a good income "comfortably off" they can say that's offensive and I shouldn't use it?

I wouldn't find it offensive but if a friend/acquaintance found it offensive. I would probably avoid using it in his presence. That's the point.
IT's about respect, giving and getting.

This is obtuse. Can you pinpoint a term that "offends Cloud" that is as innocuous as being called privileged?

Again it's your determination that the term is innocuous. How can you say it is for the person you're talking to? You even said a term that 'offends Cloud'. You give her the respect to determine which terms are offensive to her. Why does ANYBODY else not get the same privilege. Arrogance on your part. You can't possible know every term that offends someone, but once the person tells you, you should respect THEIR definition.

 

[Synobun]

Again it's your determination that the term is innocuous. How can you say it is for the person you're talking to? You even said a term that 'offends Cloud'. You give her the respect to determine which terms are offensive to her. Why does ANYBODY else not get the same privilege. Arrogance on your part. You can't possible know every term that offends someone, but once the person tells you, you should respect THEIR definition.

I repeat the same question. Cloud gets defensive if you use anti-trans rhetoric against her. As she should. (As a side note, I don't really know why you're using her to defend your position here.)

Do you feel being called privileged is anti-white? Do you believe there is history behind the term that dehumanizes you? Do you think that your wellness is put at risk by the use of that term?

"Being offended" is not as simple as "I personally don't like this" in the context of oppression and discrimination. The language and terminology used towards Cloud has history and has been weaponized for decades against the trans community. What is your reasoning for offense beyond an arbitrary line in the sand you've drawn yourself? What history is being brought up? What danger is being wrought upon you? You get told you possess white privilege. Are white people oppressed? Has this term been weaponized against white people? Have you lived a life having the term used against you by both people and the system? What harm have you suffered due to "white privilege" being assigned to you?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

What harm have you suffered due to "white privilege" being assigned to you?

It made him feel uncomfortable...

Meanwhile, the police continue to let us know how little they value protesters on social media:

 

[rah]

I repeat the same question.

Again, your arrogance to determine that it can't possibly offend me is simply amazing.
The term is a term meant to irritate an divide. The dozen people that have done so here just shows my point.
Should it matter how uncomfortable a term makes a person? It either does or it doesn't. And you don't get to tell me how it should make me feel.

If you decide you don't respect me enough to accept how I believe, then that's your right. But don't expect my respect in return. Obviously I'm sure you don't care about that either.
But either way, I will be respectful arguing with Cloud because I think she deserves it.

And I'm also sure you'll continue picking at the scab to bait me further


Go back and read my original post on the matter.
It's really sad that you all piled on after this post of enlightenment. What was my crime, that I said I wish there was a different term for it?
There is way to much hate at this site.

I was never a fan of the term white privilege since I always thought it meant that any success I've ever had was not due to my hard work and creativity but because I was white. I found this offensive and demeaning. Jimmy Kimmel gave a better definition the other night in his monologue saying that white privilege isn't that white confers privilege but that other colors confer daily handicaps. This is a definition I can support 100% but it does make me wish there was a different term to define it. But it is what it is.

 

[Traitorfish]

If you're open to acknowledging that someone else's lot in life is disadvantaged, you're recognizing that your lot is advantaged.

I don't think that's obvious. "Advantage" and "disadvantage" must surely described position in relation to some assumed baseline, not simply between whatever two points we have chosen to compare. If two groups both fall below this baseline, it seems frivolous to insist that one is "advantaged" because they have not fallen so far beneath it as the other.

If the lot of working class white Americans is to be less badly mistreated than black and brown Americans, it is not clear what use their is in describing this as "advantage" except bullying them into accepting their condition, if not a further deterioration in their position, and that seems pretty perverse just on the face of it.

 

[zxcvbob]

It made him feel uncomfortable...

Meanwhile, the police continue to let us know how little they value protesters on social media:

I watched that play out on live TV, local coverage. Neither depiction is really accurate. The truck was moving fast, maybe 35 or 40 mph? It was miraculous that it didn't hit anyone, (divine intervention?) but since it didn't I don't think "plowed through the crowd" is a fair description. Everybody sees what they want to see, I guess; me too.

I still haven't heard if the driver has been charged with a crime. That was a gasoline truck, I'm glad they didn't set it on fire!

 

[cardgame]

The term is a term meant to irritate an divide.

okay, now your reticence makes sense. you started from the wrong position. the term is meant to wake white people up to the fact that they are privileged, instead of blindly bumbling along and assuming everyone else had the same circumstances growing up and just daily interactions as they had. I completely understand your dislike of the word and preference for others having a disadvantage, but it is the same circumstance just describes inside-looking-out versus outside-looking-in. One is more effective to provoke introspection and change.

for example, "police have always treated me well" is damn near exclusive to white people, like you're not gonna get that answer from POC 9/10 times and white people will give you that answer 7/10 times or so.

Go back and read my original post on the matter.
It's really sad that you all piled on after this post of enlightenment. What was my crime, that I said I wish there was a different term for it?
There is way to much hate at this site.

Where is the hate?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think that's obvious. "Advantage" and "disadvantage" must surely described position in relation to some assumed baseline, not simply between whatever two points we have chosen to compare. If two groups both fall below this baseline, it seems frivolous to insist that one is "advantaged" because they have not fallen so far beneath it as the other.

If the lot of working class white Americans is to be less badly mistreated than black and brown Americans, it is not clear what use their is in describing this as "advantage" except bullying them into accepting their condition, if not a further deterioration in their position, and that seems pretty perverse just on the face of it.

Theory of relativity applies in many places. This is probably one.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

If the lot of working class white Americans is to be less badly mistreated than black and brown Americans, it is not clear what use their is in describing this as "advantage" except bullying them into accepting their condition, if not a further deterioration in their position, and that seems pretty perverse just on the face of it.

Then what else would you call the disparity in treatment by the police?

 

[AmazonQueen]

Again, your arrogance to determine that it can't possibly offend me is simply amazing.
The term is a term meant to irritate an divide. The dozen people that have done so here just shows my point.
Should it matter how uncomfortable a term makes a person? It either does or it doesn't. And you don't get to tell me how it should make me feel.

If you decide you don't respect me enough to accept how I believe, then that's your right. But don't expect my respect in return. Obviously I'm sure you don't care about that either.
But either way, I will be respectful arguing with Cloud because I think she deserves it.

And I'm also sure you'll continue picking at the scab to bait me further


Go back and read my original post on the matter.
It's really sad that you all piled on after this post of enlightenment. What was my crime, that I said I wish there was a different term for it?
There is way to much hate at this site.

I don't think people are trying to bait you or hate you, just trying to understand your reasoning and convince you of ours. Isn't that what a forum is for?

 

[El_Machinae]

Really, if people are expressing dissonance over the word 'privilege', just be prepared to pivot. All the concepts lead to each-other in a step-wise fashion. It's easy-peasy. Why lose a conversation?

 

[Synobun]

Again, your arrogance to determine that it can't possibly offend me is simply amazing.
The term is a term meant to irritate an divide. The dozen people that have done so here just shows my point.
Should it matter how uncomfortable a term makes a person? It either does or it doesn't. And you don't get to tell me how it should make me feel.

If you decide you don't respect me enough to accept how I believe, then that's your right. But don't expect my respect in return. Obviously I'm sure you don't care about that either.
But either way, I will be respectful arguing with Cloud because I think she deserves it.

And I'm also sure you'll continue picking at the scab to bait me further


Go back and read my original post on the matter.
It's really sad that you all piled on after this post of enlightenment. What was my crime, that I said I wish there was a different term for it?
There is way to much hate at this site.

You're simply making up things now. Why do you fly off the handle like this every time you're challenged? You can be offended and made uncomfortable by whatever you like. Nobody's told you that you can't be. What's being questioned is the implication of equivalence and the reasoning behind it.

What division is being irritated? Do you think being told you have white privilege is what's keeping minorities disadvantaged? Why does inequality have to be viewed through the lens of "those poor minorities," when it's the actions of a white hegemony centuries ago that have made them so?

The equivalency argument falls flat because it implies trans people simply decided to be offended by certain language. They chose to be offended and now we respect that, so why can't we respect your choice? Except that isn't how it works. They're offended by context. What context are you being offended by? Why do you think it's the same? Why must we view minorities as disadvantaged but white people as individuals?

I don't think that's obvious. "Advantage" and "disadvantage" must surely described position in relation to some assumed baseline, not simply between whatever two points we have chosen to compare. If two groups both fall below this baseline, it seems frivolous to insist that one is "advantaged" because they have not fallen so far beneath it as the other.

If the lot of working class white Americans is to be less badly mistreated than black and brown Americans, it is not clear what use their is in describing this as "advantage" except bullying them into accepting their condition, if not a further deterioration in their position, and that seems pretty perverse just on the face of it.

It'd really suck if being working class was worse if you weren't white. Wait...

Of all people, Traitorfish, I'd have expected you to grok the nuance of privilege not equaling immunity to adversity. White privilege does not mean one does not suffer if they are white. It means they have advantages that aren't afforded to other demographics. This does not guarantee success nor does it mean someone who is white is assured comfort. But it does mean they aren't fighting against as many obstacles as a minority. This is simply fact. It's not a crime. It's not something to feel guilty about. Plenty of white people in Western society have utterly miserable lives and get screwed over by others at every turn, but they'll never know the fear of living an entire life of potentially being hunted due to the colour of their skin.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I understand that it's uncomfortable having your priviledge pointed out to you, even if it doesn't feel like you have any, even if you've suffered experiences similar to those pointing it out to you, because it feels like it's an attack against you, as an individual, but it isn't, no more than it is an attack to point out that there are priviledges for males, females and the rich.

It's uncomfortable at worst.

 

[aelf]

rah, Farm Boy, Manfred and Modder_Mode can form a group now. So don't go around claiming that you are being excluded from a group here because you do have people with the same grouses as you.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I don't think "plowed through the crowd" is a fair description. Everybody sees what they want to see, I guess; me too.

Sounds kind of off putting but it's an accurate statement. "Over the crowd" or "Into the crowd" would be misleading.

I think we're so propagandized to that the bare truth sounds wrong to the ears.

That was a gasoline truck, I'm glad they didn't set it on fire!

It'd be such a waste of a mobile molotov cocktail factory. When God gives you lemons.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A key here is that there is potential discarding of the individual.

Cloud, you are trans. But you are so much more than that to me, and I certainly hope you know it. So when I say it there is nothing in it but a simple statement of fact.

Rah, you are privileged, and so am I. Being born white in the USA carries that, irrevocably. I was born in what at the time was a semi rural area on the verge of developing into a city to working class parents...not in NYC as scion of a real estate magnate. But on an apples to apples comparison, I have a friend about my age who grew up in the same semi-rural area, born to working class parents who did not have access to public education until he went to high school. That was strictly a function of race, so, yeah, I am privileged. My kids have the benefit that their father grew up going to publicly provided schools, his kids do not have that, my kids are privileged. We are privileged, that's just a simple statement of fact.

Respect has nothing to do with not using the word. Respect comes in recognizing that just like Cloud you are more to me, and probably to all of us. When you feel disrespected please consider that.

 

[El_Machinae]

I understand that it's uncomfortable having your priviledge pointed out to you, even if it doesn't feel like you have any, even if you've suffered experiences similar to those pointing it out to you, because it feels like it's an attack against you, as an individual, but it isn't, no more than it is an attack to point out that there are priviledges for males, females and the rich.

It's uncomfortable at worst.

I don't think that's the worst part. The worst part is that it causes dissonance, which means that if you don't plant the seeds that resolve the dissonance in your favour (which can take time), you risk permanently losing the person.

Like, I don't know if I can convince you that the tactic of insisting that someone has privilege could be damaging. I've used the proper words, but if you're disregarding each of the words because of previous poorly worded exposure to the idea, then your previous dissonance resolved itself in ways that are harder to overcome.

 

[rah]

You're simply making up things now. Why do you fly off the handle like this every time you're challenged? You can be offended and made uncomfortable by whatever you like. Nobody's told you that you can't be.

hahahahaha. that's all the last few pages have been about. People telling me that it's not offensive so it shouldn't bother me.
I was even told that it's the truth so it can't possible be offensive. (yeah, someone actually said that)

it implies trans people simply decided to be offended by certain language.

everyone get to decide what offends them, not just trans people.

I understand that it's uncomfortable having your priviledge pointed out to you, even if it doesn't feel like you have any, even if you've suffered experiences similar to those pointing it out to you, because it feels like it's an attack against you, as an individual, but it isn't, no more than it is an attack to point out that there are priviledges for males, females and the rich.

God, read my first post, I agreed with the concept but got there looking from a different angle. That's probably why I'm so defensive here. I agree with everyone and they still say I'm wrong.

Not every white is privileged. It's been many years since I was treated badly. I was lucky, the reasons I was beaten, arrested, and mistreated for were all things that I could decide to change. Like my hair length, clothes, lack of wealth, and political beliefs. Blacks don't get to decide. Which is why I would prefer a term that points to their disadvantage since that's the real issue.

But then, I can only repeat this stuff so many times. Just telling me it's not offensive so I'm wrong to think it is, isn't going to change my opinion on it.
I don't like the term, period. And I wish there was a different term to convey the disadvantages that blacks face every day they exist. It's not how we treat white's that's the problem, it's how we treat those that are not.

 

[Bugfatty300]

everyone get to decide what offends them, not just trans people.

No you don't. The only choice you have is whether or not you speak up about it or let it fester.

 

[Synobun]

hahahahaha. that's all the last few pages have been about. People telling me that it's not offensive so it shouldn't bother me.
I was even told that it's the truth so it can't possible be offensive. (yeah, someone actually said that)

Yet again you refuse to answer the questions that would explain your position. Please be sure to make another post soon about how terrible this place is because you're misunderstood and unfairly maligned.