[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Timsup2nothin]

When it is clear the criminals are using the protesters as cover, is there no obligation on the protesters to remove that cover?

Ummmmm...no?

"Okay, sorry guys, looks like there's some crime going on, so that whole bit about how you blue shirted thugs are f'ing killing people in the streets...we gotta just let that pass."

How about there is an obligation on the cops to not cause protests by randomly killing folks?

 

[Ajidica]

What does "remov[ing] that cover" entail?

Clearing the streets during the night when under curfew. Not building barricades in streets.
Stuff like that.

 

[red_elk]

What does "remov[ing] that cover" entail?

In Ukraine protesters eventually organized their own militia squads, which were preventing looting, with limited success.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

@Cloud_Strife I guess this is just striking a blow against capitalism, huh?

I think you'd be complaining about property violence regardless if it targetted big companies or tiny establishments because fundamentally you are against violence, even if that is what it takes to get change

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Clearing the streets during the night when under curfew. Not building barricades in streets.
Stuff like that.

Yeah, because protesting is most effective when you don't do anything to inconvenience the people who just don't give a rap about thug cops killing those other people.

 

[Gorbles]

Clearing the streets during the night when under curfew. Not building barricades in streets.
Stuff like that.

Sorry to jump in, but are you suggesting people break curfew to inconvenience the cops less . . . when the cops are brutalising civilians for simply being there? Would you take that risk?

 

[Lexicus]

Clearing the streets during the night when under curfew. Not building barricades in streets.
Stuff like that.

Yes, but then we run into...

 

[Ajidica]

Sorry to jump in, but are you suggesting people break curfew to inconvenience the cops less . . . when the cops are brutalising civilians for simply being there? Would you take that risk?

Not sure if there was a language breakdown, or I was unclear. I was saying follow the night time curfew so the security services can stop the people who are using the protests as cover to trash, loot, and burn the local community.

@Lexicus that's unfair and you know it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you want the cops to be "allowed to do their jobs" try explaining to the cops that they need to do their jobs without randomly killing people.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

If you want evidence that decorum and being polite is being weaponized to resist any and all attempts at genuine change just read this thread, hell just read the whole debate on violence vs non-violent means.

Non-violent means only work when the system is accountable.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I thought he forged a check or something. How in the hell did he get his hands on counterfeit money? I cant imagine he's got a press in the basement, someone else could have passed it off on him.

He spent a counterfeit $20 bill. They are quite common in retail and most places check for them as a purchase is made using pens or scanners. There is no reason to believe that he knew he had used one unless he can be tied to some criminal organization. He was still hanging around outside after he spent the bill, which they checked after he made his purchase, and when the police came. Clearly he did not spend the money and then run away from his purchase.

 

[Gorbles]

Not sure if there was a language breakdown, or I was unclear. I was saying follow the night time curfew so the security services can stop the people who are using the protests as cover to trash, loot, and burn the local community.

@Lexicus that's unfair and you know it.

The night-time curfew came in, in some cases, ten minutes before the announced time of curfew, giving nobody any time to evacuate the streets before the police could lay down even more brutal force on said folks in the streets. I don't see such a curfew as intending to protect civilians so much as it is to empower the (well-recorded) police further.

If anything, the curfew works against holding police accountable, because the only accountability has come from recordings, in which many police doing these acts of brutality have masked their badges and refused to answer calls for identification.

I understand the principle of your argument, but like the others here I think you're asking the entirely wrong crowd for moderation. You should try asking the police.

 

[Syno]

From Twitter:

 

[Ajidica]

If you want the cops to be "allowed to do their jobs" try explaining to the cops that they need to do their jobs without randomly killing people.

I have friends who live a block away from where buildings were torched. Forgive me if I'm not full of warm fuzzies toward the people who are torching buildings.
A black owned barbershop that has been a presence in North Minneapolis for over a hundred years was burned.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

People have tried moderation, all it's gotten is a continuation of the status quo; more and more deaths by an increasingly militarized and hostile police.

Peaceful means aren't working fast enough to stop preventable deaths and it's rich when the calls of civility and moderation are coming from people distant enough to not even recognize the struggle minorities face.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have friends who live a block away from where buildings were torched. Forgive me if I'm not full of warm fuzzies toward the people who are torching buildings.
A black owned barbershop that has been a presence in North Minneapolis for over a hundred years was burned.

Sooooo...because of the danger to your friends you were all over demanding police reforms in Minneapolis I take it?

Or did you just frankly not give a rap because the people the police were likely to kill were no friends of yours anyway?

 

[Ajidica]

The night-time curfew came in, in some cases, ten minutes before the announced time of curfew, giving nobody any time to evacuate the streets before the police could lay down even more brutal force on said folks in the streets. I don't see such a curfew as intending to protect civilians so much as it is to empower the (well-recorded) police further.

If anything, the curfew works against holding police accountable, because the only accountability has come from recordings, in which many police doing these acts of brutality have masked their badges and refused to answer calls for identification.

I was gettings texts about a curfew being in place starting 8 pm at around noon.

@Cloud_Strife Gotta fight the status quo by burning down black owned businesses!

@Timsup2nothin I mean, I have been on protests with regards to the police (it was the St Paul police after Castille, not Minneapolis) and have posted repeatedly when the topic comes up about the importance of police reform and, when relevant, that Minneapolis Police have problems.

 

[aelf]

When it is clear the criminals are using the protesters as cover, is there no obligation on the protesters to remove that cover?

This sounds like the argument that all Muslims must denounce Islamic terrorists or be associated with them.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I have friends who live a block away from where buildings were torched. Forgive me if I'm not full of warm fuzzies toward the people who are torching buildings.
A black owned barbershop that has been a presence in North Minneapolis for over a hundred years was burned.

I think the continued loss of black lives to the police is a greater sin... buildings can be rebuilt, as can institutions.

Lives cannot, in a way.

@Cloud_Strife Gotta fight the status quo by burning down black owned businesses!

Compared to what? your poo-pooing of anything that might inconveniance others?

 

[zxcvbob]

If you want evidence that decorum and being polite is being weaponized to resist any and all attempts at genuine change just read this thread, hell just read the whole debate on violence vs non-violent means.

Non-violent means only work when the system is accountable.

Not necessarily. Non-violence works when there's is an implied credible threat of violence if it doesn't. IMHO, Malcolm X enabled MLK Jr.

Read the 1st and 2nd amendments together as a paragraph instead of separately. The right of assembly and the right to petition govt for grievences flow right into the people's right to bear arms. I think there's a reason they were grouped together.