[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh please, don’t get him started, we’ll be onto holocaust denial in just a few pages.

If he goes there he will get what he deserves.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

You gotta stop acting like bad cops are exclusively conservative. The officers themselves might be majority conservative, but the cities that seem to have the biggest problems with corrupt police are cities that have been under Democrat leadership for years or, in Atlanta's case, decades. Why haven't they done anything to address the issue? After all, the elected officials are the bosses of the police aren't they?

And this isn't an attempt to put all the blame on the Democrats. It's me trying to get you out of the mindset that this is a conservative versus liberal issue. This whole thing is a common man versus the powerful elite issue and those in power, regardless of their politics, are more than happy to turn a blind eye to corrupt policing as long as that corrupt policing is preserving their status as the powerful elite.

Totally fair point. In my defense, the context of that quote was how it related to Trump's attack on socialism in the style of a made up story about white women being raped. My use of arch-conservative there was as much to contrast the real world example of police failing to do their jobs against the made up example of socialism causing chaos as it was to remind people that cops trend conservative.

I do wonder if 'defund the police' will work out as a slogan or if it will end up backfiring on the BLM movement. My worry is that average joe will read/hear 'defund the police' as a pro-total-anarchy (or at least pro-crime) movement, rather than a way to distill a complex series of budget maneuvers to shrink police budgets in favor social services into an easy soundbite. My nature is to assume that it will spark a backlash but my nature did not predict such a broad-based BLM protest movement to spring up either.

 

[El_Machinae]

"Black lives matter" apparently does not consistently extend to the lives and livelihoods of black people.

Sigh. Again, the title is not the perfect summary of the gist.

'Greenpeace' isn't about getting animals to stop fighting. "Doctors without Borders" isn't about trying to revoke citizenship. "March of Dimes" isn't trying to increase monetary velocity.

BLM is about a specific thing. Christ, try to figure out what it means instead of regurgitating this same old line.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Since you were using the Tulsa example to derive hope broadly in terms of protest representation, it's not exactly out of left field to mention instances that contradict the statement and be less hopeful.

Well, yeah...except you have made abundantly clear where your "hope" actually lies.

 

[Takhisis]

A pretty good (and short) take on this phenomenon:

<snipped youtube video>

It touches on what Lexicus suggests, that police refusing to over-police mostly highlights how unnecessary over-policing is, but it also highlights the darker point that the police take this action with the expectation that the result will be significant material loss to the civilian population, including loss of life, and that they regard this as a wholly acceptable price to maintain their funding and authority. They're effectively outing themselves as a malevolent force in American public life.

tl;dr ‘we're the biggest gang in town’ → the police budget equals the payments for a protection racket

 

[caketastydelish]

Apparently Tik Tok teens screwed up Trump's rally lol. Turd cake.

If you’re going to insult me the least you can do is say it to my face like a man.

 

[cardgame]

Just normal police doing normal police things

 

[Berzerker]

They're protesters as well as vandals; the terms aren't mutually exclusive. Protests can be passive, vocal, violent, destructive, illegal, lewd, etc.

Are the protests peaceful if the protesters are vandals?

Anyone who is still willing to vote for Trump at this point, if we're going to make assumptions like this, are realistically never going to vote for anyone else. The "swing voter" was a mostly-mythical concept in 2016, and we're four years into Trump's administration. Anybody who sees what's going on and is still considering voting Trump is so unaffected by any of the goings-on, or has been duped by the blame of minorities / Demoncrats / Hillary / whoever Fox News is railing against this week and is therefore a moot statistic anyway.

This isn't people deliberating over their favourite bread, or even a more efficient type of tax return. This is people getting shot in the street by police for doing literally nothing. For credentialled members of the press, at range, being fired upon by police. Again, for doing nothing.

If "people being mad as a response" makes someone more willing to vote for Trump, but the initial literal unprovoked shooting of peaceful people did not move the needle the other way, that vote was never in question in the first place.

Last year saw the fewest number of unarmed black people get killed, about 1/4th the number who died in 2015 under Obama. Trying to stick Trump with Floyd's death wont sell with most people.

 

[Crezth]

Are the protests peaceful if the protesters are vandals?

If the cops* are vandals.

 

[cardgame]

If the cops* are vandals.

What do you mean if?

https://www.vcstar.com/story/news/l...ign-thousand-oaks-work-sheriff-da/3232076001/

Men accused of vandalizing Black Lives Matter sign in Westlake Village work for sheriff, DA

Three Thousand Oaks men — including two who worked for local law enforcement agencies — were recently arrested on suspicion of vandalizing a Black Lives Matter sign in Westlake Village, authorities said.

 

[Berzerker]

If the cops* are vandals.

the cops are protesters then

 

[cardgame]

Yes, but they're protesting the curtailment of their wanton violence and unaccountable authority

 

[Berzerker]

maybe they're protesting the vandals who are destroying the property of innocent people

 

[Crezth]

maybe they're protesting the vandals who are destroying the property of innocent people

I agree the cops should not do that and I support BLM supporting the rights of innocent people.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Trying to stick Trump with Floyd's death wont sell with most people.

See, the flaw here is that "most people" aren't ride or die defenders of Trumpism good open minded Independents like yourself.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Are the protests peaceful if the protesters are vandals?

Yes. Unless you consider statues to be people.

Do you consider vandalism to be a violent crime?

 

[Lexicus]

You gotta stop acting like bad cops are exclusively conservative.

It's true. Material like what Amber Guyger and her pals were sharing in their Facebook group is really fascist, it's not even conservative.

regardless of their politics

This isn't really true, but it is absolutely true that, at the municipal level, liberals are pretty indistinguishable from conservatives when it comes to supporting the political regime that the "out-of-control" police have been designed to maintain (this ties back into what I was saying to @Traitorfish about the police basically being there, fundamentally, to make sure that the city's real estate is nice and valuable for the capitalists who own it).

I do wonder if 'defund the police' will work out as a slogan or if it will end up backfiring on the BLM movement. My worry is that average joe will read/hear 'defund the police' as a pro-total-anarchy (or at least pro-crime) movement, rather than a way to distill a complex series of budget maneuvers to shrink police budgets in favor social services into an easy soundbite. My nature is to assume that it will spark a backlash but my nature did not predict such a broad-based BLM protest movement to spring up either.

I sure think it'll spark a backlash. Things could get very ugly if some Democratic cities in red states make serious moves to divest from policing and the laws are revoked by the Republicans in the state governments.

 

[Berzerker]

See, the flaw here is that "most people" aren't ride or die defenders of Trumpism good open minded Independents like yourself.

Last year saw the fewest number of unarmed black people get killed, about 1/4th the number who died in 2015 under Obama.

What do you think most people will conclude from that stat? The Democrat's outrage is hypocritical partisanship. They're exploiting the deaths of people within their own jurisdictions and distracting from their performance to attack opponents. Kinda what they did with Russia Gate, they got caught rigging their own election so they blamed Trump. The lesser of two evils lol

Yes. Unless you consider statues to be people.

Do you consider vandalism to be a violent crime?

I consider vandalism to be not peaceful and I'm left wondering why you'd equate the protesters with vandals, certainly the law doesn't. Is vandalism a violent crime? Yes, but I'm independently open minded enough to consider the alternative. I sure wouldn't equate the KKK destroying a black church with pulling down the statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, but in both cases someone's investment was destroyed... and thats violent.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I consider vandalism to be not peaceful and I'm left wondering why you'd equate the protesters with vandals

Well, because the protesters who tear down statues are committing vandalism. Therefore those protesters are vandals. Hope that ins't too complicated for you...

Is vandalism a violent crime? Yes

In reality, it's actually a property crime.

What are Property Crimes?
In general, criminal offenses typically fall under one of two categories: crimes against the person and crimes against property. “Crimes against the person” refer to the kinds of offenses that result in harm to a person’s physical or mental well-being. In contrast, “crimes against property” include those that cover theft, damage, and many other types of interference with the property of another.

Although property crimes are usually considered to be misdemeanor crimes (i.e., meaning that they result in criminal fines or a short jail sentence), they can be raised to the level of a felony offense if they are committed in connection with the use of a deadly weapon.

What are Violent Crimes?
Violent crimes or violent criminal offenses generally involve the use of force or injury to the body of another person. In such cases, the seriousness of a violent crime is usually determined by the degree of physical harm caused to the victim.

For instance, some states may impose more severe penalties for crimes resulting in serious bodily harm or serious bodily injury. The use of a weapon can raise the seriousness of the crime, especially if it is classified as a deadly weapon.

A kid vandalizing a school text book, a public investment, is a violent crime according to the view point of Berzerker, a so called anti-drug war advocate.

 

[Estebonrober]

You gotta stop acting like bad cops are exclusively conservative. The officers themselves might be majority conservative, but the cities that seem to have the biggest problems with corrupt police are cities that have been under Democrat leadership for years or, in Atlanta's case, decades. Why haven't they done anything to address the issue? After all, the elected officials are the bosses of the police aren't they?

And this isn't an attempt to put all the blame on the Democrats. It's me trying to get you out of the mindset that this is a conservative versus liberal issue. This whole thing is a common man versus the powerful elite issue and those in power, regardless of their politics, are more than happy to turn a blind eye to corrupt policing as long as that corrupt policing is preserving their status as the powerful elite.

I agree generally but. . .

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/14/us/st-louis-prosecutor-kim-gardner.html

Kim Gardner here in St. Louis has tried to reform the system here and has been laid into so hard by every conservative in the state that it is hard to tell the frothing from the spittle.