[RD] Gerrymandering

Most poor people aren't especially motivated to vote in the first place because the two parties don't care about them and make it clear every day.

This is the moment where someone replies to you and says that, since they didn't vote, they deserve to be ignored and mistreated by the state as it's their lack of voting that directly led to the oppression.
 
Most (many?) poor people cannot take a day off to vote perhaps?

Did you not see the image in that very same post? Just about every state has some form of alternative voting method. And a majority of states have no-excuse absentee ballots which means they won't have to jump through a lot of the hoops outlined in hobbs's post. Which was the point I was trying to make. The problems outlined by hobbs are the exception, not the rule. It certainly isn't the "massive problem" he makes it out to be.
 
The cases are not recent, hence the "more than 40 years ago" reference. This was back when courts were ordering school bussing.

J
The cases are not recent? The Supreme Court has been deciding several of them per year based on maps put out since the 2010 census and the complaint in many of those cases is packing.
 
The cases are not recent? The Supreme Court has been deciding several of them per year based on maps put out since the 2010 census and the complaint in many of those cases is packing.
Correct, the cases are more than 40 years old, contemporaneous with bussing cases. It was part of the Civil Rights movement to pack districts. As you point out, the same activity is frowned upon now.

J
 
No. The cases are based on maps drawn since 2010. You are free to show one that is based on a 1970s map, but you will not find it.
 
No. The cases are based on maps drawn since 2010. You are free to show one that is based on a 1970s map, but you will not find it.
You seem to be stuck on the wrong set of cases, not to mention the wrong maps. The maps were drawn in the 1960s and 1970s, sometimes with judicial support. Many of those maps are still highly concentrated--ie packed--but there is no movement to unpack them. To the contrary, if anything.

J
 
I wrote a good, high-level analysis of the problem with a useful anecdote to personalize and contextualize the problem.

You posted a pretty picture and said 'look here I win' without giving it so much as a cursory inspection. And somehow I'm the condescending one?
(well I still am condescending, more on that later)
Okay, so it's difficult to get an absentee ballot. How many poor people really need an absentee ballot though? Last I checked, most poor people aren't in professions that require them to do a lot of out-of-town traveling.

Not to mention, that opening sentence is probably one of the most condescending things I've read on this site.

No, they are not the minority. In fact, 27 states offer no-excuse absentee ballots:

earlyvoting_maps.png
Your infographic doesn't show what you think it does. No-excuse absentee ballots are only a subset of the problem. Notice how states with large minority populations tend not to have this. Also note that they tend not to have mail in balloting or in person absentee balloting.

Also, your graph shows states with early voting but it doesn't say for how long., when or by what method (they're not all equal). It also doesn't show anything about restrictive voter id laws, movements to cut funding to church and activist groups that bus poor people to polling stations or the systematic targeting of minority and urban polling stations for closure.

I too can take a graph from the internet, fail to examine or analyze it and declare total victory.

Did my post come off as condescending? Maybe that's because it was. I don't feel the need to be super nice to people who have a lack of capacity to empathize with millions of their fellow citizens.

I'm wasn't going out of my way to be a jerk but I was bluntly calling a spade a spade. If I'm wrong about the poster's background I'll cede the point without arguing. The points I made were still useful regardless of their background for anyone that's actually interested in learning about this problem and seeing it from a perspective they may not or could not have considered.

A lot of people don't understand on a visceral level that:
a) Being poor sucks in inventively cruel ways and
b) There is a targeted effort to ensure poor people are disenfranchised by manipulating those same, cruel suckeries of poverty.


Also lol what
Last I checked, most poor people aren't in professions that require them to do a lot of out-of-town traveling.
Is this?

What does that have to do with the need to take a sick kid to the hospital, or pay for a car, or get out of your 10am to 2am back to back shifts at McDonalds, or any of a trillion other suckeries that either don't apply to the middle class or would at worst be a nuisance for them?

Also how many truck drivers (many of which are working poor) and seasonal workers (construction, farming, even retail) are there? All of those can involve constant relocation.
 
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Most (many?) poor people cannot take a day off to vote perhaps?
And a million other factors. He literally grabbed the first plausible google image that touched on this issue and posted it. It doesn't support his conclusion or really counter my argument. If anything it shows roughly where the disenfranchising is clustered in this country while leaving out crucial, major details of the problem.

Most poor people aren't especially motivated to vote in the first place because the two parties don't care about them and make it clear every day.
Well we will be able to prove this hypothesis when we take away the systematic suppression and make it a level playing field. Only then can we make true inferances about the motives of poor poeple that don't vote. For every person that could be plausibly counted out as being unmotivated by the parties you could just as easily say they were alienated by the suppressive and discriminatory actions of one of those parties.
 
Yeah, 100 million people didn't vote because they're lazy, not because voting is unnecessarily onerous!

Well, lazy is a harsh word but yes 2016 had virtually all the factors in place that usually lead to low turnout due to "lazyness".
  • The economy was, well, less bad anyway, and that usually leads to lower turnout. People implicitly consent to the status quo.
  • Vitriolic negative campagning usually depresses turnout somewhat.
  • The election trending in one direction, to the point of the outcome being a foregone conclusion, is usually highly detrimental to turnout.

Add to that the fact that rather than falling victim to highly specific suppression tactics it may just have happened to be so that African Americans were slightly less interested in picking among two very old white people who were to somewhat varying degree sexist, racist, disgustinly rich crooks.

Everything is just said explains why turnout wasn't exceptionally high, or lower than 08 or whathaveyou.
What you are looking here though are the answers to two other questions:
Why has turnout not increased pver the course of the last, say, 24 or 28 years?
Why is was US turnout low 24 (or whatever) years ago to begin with?​
The answer to the first question is: Because you're Muricans.
The answer to the second question is: Turnout has increased over time however slightly in basically all ethnic groups. It's just that the ones with lower turnout grow faster so the increase in all groups is not reflected in the total.

Turnout_by_Race.png



And yes, 2014 was exceptional.
And yes, people chose to not take notice.
 
Most Americans are not farmers anymore and need a couple of days to make it into town to vote. Tuesday election days should have been eliminated a long time ago.
Why any advanced nation doesn't have voting on a weekend or make it a national holiday is criminal.
But better candidates would do more for turnout then anything else.


And yeah hobbs, your response was pretty condescending. I expect better from you. And it's certainly not the way to convince people to what you're trying to say.
 
Most Americans are not farmers anymore and need a couple of days to make it into town to vote. Tuesday election days should have been eliminated a long time ago.
Why any advanced nation doesn't have voting on a weekend or make it a national holiday is criminal.
That may be all fine and well, but does not detract from the elemental point about early voting and absentee ballots.
There are enough people who work in jobs that are being done 168 hours a week, every week, often enough because they have to be.
To them it's rather immaterial on what day the unduly restricted voting happens.
 
The Netherlands had 81.9% turnout this year, voting was on a wednesday.
We have enough voting offices so that there are barely any queues.
We have a functioning national ID system so that there a no questions about eligibility and the voting is quick.
The government, not the voter, handles the voter registration and does this well. You don't need to register half a year in advance in some obscure office somewhere in the middle of nowhere, only open between 9:00 and 11:00 AM.
You're allowed to vote even if you've been convicted for stealing a pack of gum 20 years ago.
 
Well we will be able to prove this hypothesis when we take away the systematic suppression and make it a level playing field. Only then can we make true inferances about the motives of poor poeple that don't vote. For every person that could be plausibly counted out as being unmotivated by the parties you could just as easily say they were alienated by the suppressive and discriminatory actions of one of those parties.

I don't mean to suggest a single cause here. My view is that a proper analysis and study would probably demonstrate that it's plausible to say Trump won in 2016 because of the years-long campaign by state-level Republican parties to suppress the votes. Such an analysis won't be carried out, though, because the Republicans are still in charge in the states in question. That said, absolutely I do believe that the Democrats not doing enough to inspire people can also be blamed for lower-than-desired turnout for Democratic candidates.
 
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We have a functioning national ID system so that there a no questions about eligibility and the voting is quick.
The government, not the voter, handles the voter registration and does this well.
Anytime anyone suggests a national ID as a requirement to vote here, they're called racists. So not quite the same.

But yeah, the turnout in this country is an embarrassment.
 
Anytime anyone suggests a national ID as a requirement to vote here, they're called racists. So not quite the same.

That's because the US doesn't have a functioning ID system. If getting a national ID takes a lot of time and energy and it's only used to vote the people who aren't super eager to vote will have another excuse to stay home
 
Most Americans are not farmers anymore and need a couple of days to make it into town to vote. Tuesday election days should have been eliminated a long time ago.
Why any advanced nation doesn't have voting on a weekend or make it a national holiday is criminal.

Young people get wasted and party/sex on the weekend; the Republicans would win every time. But you are repug yourself. Very sneaky. :nono:
 
The most obvious and easy fix to gerrymandering is of course not having single-congressman districts. You can‘t „crack“ or „pack“ when the whole state elects its X representatives on party lists. And the second chamber, aka the senate, is for representing local interests, if such direct lobbying is requested.

Those thoughts are of course coming from theoretical crafting of the „ideal system“ in political science (theory), not rooted in what can actually be achieved in reform. Nevertheless, it‘s helpful to be reminded of the big picture some times.
 
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