god: malevolent, powerless or non-existant?

[punkbass2000]

Perhaps in the same way some peope can't prevent the religious illusion of an answered prayer.

Perhaps. And perhaps the way some people delude themselves into thinking there's no God. Perhaps.

As well as appeals to the majority.

This is not an appeal to the majority. To say that the "simplest" explanation is contradictory to the vast majority of human experience is an extraordinary claim.

A gut feeling isn't sensory perception. Looking at an apple and seeing red, is. A gut feeling is an internal feeling that does not rely on the outside.

Internal feelings are not perceived?

 

[punkbass2000]

I think we're talking about different things.

I can't see that, sorry. It seems to me that ones on a screen don't work as well for me, though I can't recall where I got that idea.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

No.. but I don't understand why you think this is so important.

Its fundamental.

There are things that we label (such as democracy, economics, etc.) that don't correspond to a solid physical reality.

As I said in the other post, labels arent the point, but anyway, yes I agree with that...

They are labels of ideas.

Im not talking about labels, Im talking about the differences between objective and subjective reality.

I simply don't see anything strange going on here. That communism doesn't exist as a physical object somewhere doesn't prevent us from labelling it. Why should it?

Indeed, why should it? Who said we shouldnt?

Can you give an example of something we've labelled that we can't imagine?

No I sure cant. As I say in the last line of that quote:

Before you get to labeling something you need to know it exists, or imagine that it exists.

Democracy is a complex concept that doesn't exist as a physical manifestation, but rather as a concept.

Yes I know. IIRC, we got on this tangent because I said to Bill3000 that even though Democracy is just an idea that exists in our minds, we're willing to kill each other for it. And that this is why to humans, the world of human abstract thought is just as real, or more real than what we think of as objective reality.

Your question is how can this idea exist in our minds, not outside, and not contradict the hypothesis that reality is independent from my thoughts. This isn't a paradox at all. There are concepts that our minds have labelled.. The concepts exist in the real world, it's the labels that don't.

No. We're apparently talking about different things. Speaking of subjective reality.

 

[El_Machinae]

This might be better:

I cannot see anything in yours.

Possibly.Of course then you have to change the meaning of consciousness to something only in physical terms-the language of neurology.

Well, the descriptions regarding consciousness are certainly moving to incorporate more and more neurological information.

 

[warpus]

It's almost sounds like you are hinting that which is the "outside" of us is more real than what goes on inside. But our understanding of the "outside" totally depends on what happens "inside"/ perception. While I hear someone talk this way it odd the way they argue their case hints they believe they are more than an illusion or byproduct of the brain. Kind of like those atheist who cries "There is no God" (as well "we have no soul") speaks as if they are the voice of a god.

I was just pointing out the difference between receiving input from the outside world (ie. hearing a musical note) and something that happens entirely within the confines of your mind (ie. having a thought about tacos)

Claims that something you are feeling is coming from the outside better be accompanied with evidence that this is in fact true. Otherwise we're going to have to assume that it is purely an internal phenomenon.

Possibly.Of course then you have to change the meaning of consciousness to something only in physical terms.

What do you mean by 'physical' ? I am not saying that consciousness is a physical entity. It is merely produced by one.

That is true for physical science but there is nothing material about consciousness.

Who says that there is? Is the software running on your PC not entirely a product of the hardware contained within? Yet it is not hardware.. Hmm and yet it isn't a paradox!

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, there already was an intelligent conversation about this very issue in the Ask a Theologian thread - in particular, with one who was the closest thing you can come to an expert on CFC on the subject.

An expert on existence??

 

[El_Machinae]

I can't see that, sorry. It seems to me that ones on a screen don't work as well for me, though I can't recall where I got that idea.

Well, at least we've shown that you can turn off the illusion, then, right?

I find it easy to see the illusion, because I was coached and practiced in seeing it.

 

[CartesianFart]

Well, the descriptions regarding consciousness are certainly moving to incorporate more and more neurological information.

Well,i would love to see that literature but i suspect that if the continual use of the word 'consciousness' even up-to-date datas on the research of the neurology department will subvert true science and make it more of a watering down of true physical science.

 

[El_Machinae]

Okay, assume the worst and that answers aren't eventually available. Have fun.

This is not an appeal to the majority. To say that the "simplest" explanation is contradictory to the vast majority of human experience is an extraordinary claim.

Merely because the claim is exciting, doesn't mean that it's not the simplest.

There are certainly other viable theories as to why we now think of the earth as a globe (and historically thought of it as flat), however they seem to be less 'simple' than the theory that the earth is actually a globe.

 

[CartesianFart]

What do you mean by 'physical' ?

Physical that can be weighed and measured by series of observation and experiment.

I am not saying that consciousness is a physical entity. It is merely produced by one.

How can that be so?How can you verify that when a particular thing that is corporeal produce something incorporeal?Consciousness is not some kind of a gas when you boil water.

Who says that there is? Is the software running on your PC not entirely a product of the hardware contained within? Yet it is not hardware.. Hmm and yet it isn't a paradox!

Actually that analogy is off the wall dude,there is a large difference on the meaning of consciousness and things that are material such as neurons or brain in comparison to computer and its hardware.

 

[Bill3000]

An expert on existence??

No - an expert on the subject that was the original topic.

 

[warpus]

Actually that analogy is off the wall dude,there is a large difference on the meaning of consciousness and things that are material such as neurons or brain in comparison to computer and its hardware.

And you are going to back up your claim that consciosness is immaterial how?

 

[CartesianFart]

And you are going to back up your claim that consciosness is immaterial how?

Consciousness is a fiction.

check this out,it is my little comment on the silliness on how people use it.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=213265

 

[warpus]

Perhaps. And perhaps the way some people delude themselves into thinking there's no God. Perhaps.

Heh. It just doesn't work that way. If there was some sort of evidence, then it might be classified as a delusion.. but since there isn't any.. delusion is the worst possible word you could have picked.

This is not an appeal to the majority. To say that the "simplest" explanation is contradictory to the vast majority of human experience is an extraordinary claim.

The simplest explanation is an all-powerful & all-knowing supernatural being for whom there is no evidence and who communicates with a select few by way of 'gut feelings'?

Internal feelings are not perceived?[/QUOTE]

Internal feelings are not perceived?

Of course it's perceived, but it originates on the inside. People are claiming that it originates on the outside.

Yes I know. IIRC, we got on this tangent because I said to Bill3000 that even though Democracy is just an idea that exists in our minds, we're willing to kill each other for it. And that this is why to humans, the world of human abstract thought is just as real, or more real than what we think of as objective reality.

Yes, we indeed live in worlds of labels and constructs that only exist in our minds.. but that doesn't change the fact that there is an objective reality out there that exists independnent of our interpretations of it.

 

[mdwh]

There is no re-creating the feeling, and it's certainly not something you can expect and train yourself to feel. There's nothing to compare it to, no words to describe it. It is completely inhuman

How do you know it's inhuman? How do you know it's God?

You're essentially saying I can train myself to see another as-of-yet nonexistant color

I'd say it's more like training yourself to think that you can see another colour.

not possible. You can only expect or imagine things by association with what you already know or have experienced

Of course it's possible to experience a new feeling for the first time, if that's the first time you've tried it.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

All I can say is, no one can be told what the Matrix looks like. You have to see it for yourself. I could never ever adequately explain on an internet forum why I am so sure that what I felt came from God, and I expect no one to take my word for it; nonetheless I feel as strongly about it as I do just about anything.

 

[BasketCase]

Speaking as an atheist:

When you grow up and leave the nest, almost all parents do the same thing: they love you, but they leave you to run your own affairs. Sometimes they'll help out if things start going REALLY badly for you, but most of the time they let you run your own life.

Ironically, most parents match, exactly, God's current position in the world as one who loves us but doesn't do much of anything when stuff goes wrong.

So most parents fall into the "able but not willing to prevent evil" category. Yet, they are not considered malevolent.


My conclusion, therefore, is that Epicurus was full of crap. It's perfectly reasonable for a benevolent God to do nothing when bad things happen--He's simply giving us what we actually want.

 

[mdwh]

All I can say is, no one can be told what the Matrix looks like. You have to see it for yourself. I could never ever adequately explain on an internet forum why I am so sure that what I felt came from God, and I expect no one to take my word for it; nonetheless I feel as strongly about it as I do just about anything.

I don't ask what it feels like, or why it feels like it came from God.

The question is, why do you conclude that having a feeling constitutes evidence that God exists?

If you have never been told of the idea of "God", would you still have concluded that this feeling was connected to the start of the Universe?

I have all sorts of feelings. I can't explain them, but that's beside the point - what I don't do is claim that they are proof of some supernatural being. Is experience love proof of cupid? If you say no, can I tell you you have to experience it yourself?

 

[Nylan]

How do you know it's inhuman? How do you know it's God?

I'd say it's more like training yourself to think that you can see another colour.

Of course it's possible to experience a new feeling for the first time, if that's the first time you've tried it.

1 Because it has no correspondance with any sensory perception, and is far more powerful than any thought or emotion

That and faith

2 You can't think you see another color when you can't imagine a new color to see. Try seeing a new color. It can't happen. It's beyond your capacity to imagine. You can only imagine blends of other colors



As Eran says, it is impossible to convey this over an internet forum, because it is impossible to imagine or describe properly

3. Naturally that just proves my point. If you've experienced it for the first time, then you're going to know what it feels like. Meaning it actually happened. You could not imagine what a jackhammer sounds like if you are deaf from birth. However, if you had been able to hear a jackhammer at some point in your life before, then you would be able to imagine it.

Point is, there is nothing, I reapeat, nothing even remotely like it. It's mind blowing.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It is not just a "feeling", or an "emotion", or something like that.