Going Vegan

[Stevenpfo]

Ok, i'm back and i'm going to come at this from a fact based angle instead of the theory one I was using before. I never meant to get sucked into the moral dilemma of animal rights. My stance on that is very similar to abortion: I don't like it but it's your choice so I don't bring it up or tell people why I think it's wrong. Those arguments never help the issue or change people's minds.

Anyways, here we go. My reasons for going vegan are:

I think it's naturally healthier

Wiki Link

People who avoid meat are reported to have lower body mass indices than those following the average Canadian diet; from this follows lower death rates from ischemic heart disease; lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer.[60]

It's better for the environment

Wiki Link

Animals need more water than grain crops [1]. According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain.

Diseases - Animal and Human

Wiki Link

The use of intensive farming are thought to make it more likely to evolve harmful diseases. Techniques used in factory farming, such as the need for cheap, artificial foodstuffs have been credited with leading to a higher incidence of Bovine spongiform encephalopathy, also known as mad cow disease, which in turn is claimed to cause Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in humans.[12] Overpopulation may facilitate the spread of disease. Many communicable diseases spread rapidly under such conditions. Animals raised on antibiotics may develop antibiotic resistant strains of pathogenic bacteria ("superbugs").[46] Use of animal vaccines can create new viruses that kill people and cause flu pandemic threats. H5N1 is an example of where this might have already occurred.

Growth Hormones

Wiki Link

Some vegans feel additional health benefits are gained by eating food with minimal levels of substances such as growth hormones and antibiotics, which are often given to intensively farmed animals in countries where this is legal.[55] Because they are similar to human hormones, growth-promoters such as anabolic steroids that are used in cattle farming in America may affect fetal and childhood development.[56][57][58] Due to this uncertainty, the use of such growth promoters is illegal in the European community.

That last one isn't a hard fact but one that scares me nonetheless . I'm not that worried about myself (well, maybe). I'm more worried about how it will affect my children's growth. I know Diet For A New America by John Robbins had a really good section this. But I lost the book years ago. It had a lot of really good information on everything to do with this, actually.

 

[Mirc]

It's better for the environment

Wiki Link

That's the only part I don't agree with.

But as you said, I don't care if someone is a vegetarian as long as they are not being hypocrites and even then, I don't really care unless they are going to try to stop me from eating whatever I want (I had a gf like that about 1 year ago).

BTW, there is an anti-vegetarian environment movement too, just so you know.

Spoiler :

Animals need more water than grain crops [1].

They also transpire a lot more. Water re-enters the environment when consumed by the animals.

According to the USDA, growing crops for farm animals requires nearly half of the U.S. water supply and 80% of its agricultural land. Animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90% of the soy crop, 80% of the corn crop, and 70% of its grain.

While if we all ate only plants, these crops would simply not be for animals, but for humans.

BTW, edit:
Those are my ideas. If you don't agree with them, fine, but what I said are facts too (about transpiration for example, did you know domestic mammals transpire - sweat - almost 4 times more water than plants?). So with this I am out of this thread as it's obvious that nobody is going to convince anybody in this thread, or even make someone rethink their ideas (me included).

 

[Stevenpfo]

That's the only part I don't agree with.
BTW, there is an anti-vegetarian environment movement too, just so you know.

Spoiler :

They also transpire a lot more. Water re-enters the environment when consumed by the animals.


While if we all ate only plants, these crops would simply not be for animals, but for humans.

BTW, edit:
Those are my ideas. If you don't agree with them, fine, but what I said are facts too (about transpiration for example, did you know animals transpire almost 4 times more water than plants?). So with this I am out of this thread as it's obvious that nobody is going to convince anybody in this thread, or even make someone rethink their ideas (me included).

I'd love to hear some facts on why it is wrong.

Here are some more facts...

Water is becoming increasingly scarce or polluted in many parts of the world. [18] Scientists at the World Water Week conference held in August 2004 advised that "growth in demand for meat and dairy products is unsustainable" and that "[a]nimals need much more water than grain to produce the same amount of food, and ending malnutrition and feeding even more mouths will take still more water." [19]

According to the vegetarian author John Robbins, it takes roughly takes 60, 108, 168, 229 pounds of water to produce a pound of potatoes, wheat, corn and rice respectively. He reports that a pound of beef however, requires 12,000 gallons of water.

Professor Pimentel explained of his calculations that:

the data we had indicated that a beef animal consumed 100 kg of hay and 4 kg of grain per 1 kg of beef produced. Using the basic rule that it takes about 1,000 liters of water to produce 1 kg of hay and grain, thus about 100,000 liters were required to produce the 1 kg of beef.

Source? The link you quoted above

 

[Ecofarm]

Edit: And so far, I've answered anything directed at me. While the people I am arguing with (declared vegetarians and a guy nicknamed "ecofarm" ) haven't. They just keep addressing the same issue that I answer every time.

The poster nicknamed "ecofarm" would like to officially remark that he has provided several "proofs" of his points in this debate.

Carry on.

 

[Stevenpfo]

BTW, edit:
Those are my ideas. If you don't agree with them, fine, but what I said are facts too (about transpiration for example, did you know animals transpire almost 4 times more water than plants?). So with this I am out of this thread as it's obvious that nobody is going to convince anybody in this thread, or even make someone rethink their ideas (me included).

I try to pride myself that I can (and have) changed positions based on knowledge gained. I know that no one can do this 100% but I also know that I have lived up to this line of thought pretty decently in my life. You provide the facts and I will read them as impartially as I can.

The fact is, Mirc, that you have (really) not provided facts. The facts you have provided don't (truly) add to the conversation. I understand that animals perspire more. They also consume a lot more water. You can't stop that line of thought half way through just so it suits your argument.

In all my years of reading up on vegan diets I have yet to see a good argument on why it is bad. It has been a few years since I searched though. So maybe a new one has come out.

 

[wicshade]

I think it's naturally healthier

The consumtion of red meat and salty foods are what contribute to colon cancer, not meat in general. I think a diet that consisted of everything a vegetarian ate along with moderate portions of fish and low fat protein would be healthier. Then if thier diet did not have them. The reason why IMO most non vegetarians/vegans have health problems is because they are less concious about what they eat.

http://www.skatelog.com/nutrition/fish-diet.htm

It's better for the environment
True if we did not have livestock we would consume less land and water to produce a vegetarain diet, but we still would need fertilizer to grow all of this food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer

Diseases - Animal and Human
To my knowledge these diseases were not caused by mutation, but by natural selection because this bacteria strain had a tollerance to the antibiotic we used. So we did not create anything new, only took out it's competition. (im not saying this to justifiy it, i am only trying to show that we are not creating some new unstopable microbes.)

Growth Hormones

women are affected by these the most, many types of breast cancer have been linked to this. Oh and fish from the sea don't have growth hormones. Cancer is were we are worried about there effects, but the effects are still vague. I'd like to point out the the growth horomones are only Molecular copies of the horomones that cows already produce. That is also how most of our drugs and pharmiceuticals/antibiotics are designed and manufactured.


http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/bgh.htm

 

[Stevenpfo]

The consumtion of red meat and salty foods are what contribute to colon cancer, not meat in general. I think a diet that consisted of everything a vegetarian ate along with moderate portions of fish and low fat protein would be healthier. Then if thier diet did not have them. The reason why IMO most non vegetarians/vegans have health problems is because they are less concious about what they eat.

I can't really disagree with that. My family (wife and kids) has not ate red meat for a few years now. I hate all sea food so that was always a non-issue for myself.

True if we did not have livestock we would consume less land and water to produce a vegetarain diet, but we still would need fertilizer to grow all of this food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertilizer

I read through your link and could not find anything saying how much of the fertilizer is actually from animals. There seemed to be many other options for fertilizer though.

To my knowledge these diseases were not caused by mutation, but by natural selection because this bacteria strain had a tollerance to the antibiotic we used. So we did not create anything new, only took out it's competition. (im not saying this to justifiy it, i am only trying to show that we are not creating some new unstopable microbes.)

I did think the wording of my quote was a bit strong on that one. I don't think we created anything new. However, I do think we are creating situations where there is more of a chance of these things happening.

women are affected by these the most, many types of breast cancer have been linked to this. Oh and fish from the sea don't have growth hormones. Cancer is were we are worried about there effects, but the effects are still vague. I'd like to point out the the growth horomones are only Molecular copies of the horomones that cows already produce. That is also how most of our drugs and pharmiceuticals/antibiotics are designed and manufactured.

Granted, hormones may not affect most of us, I still remain wary.

That leads me to some other things though. This has to do with diseases more than hormones. But it still has to do with what we do/feed to farm animals. It still mostly follows what you were saying about red meat though.

A British inquiry into BSE concluded that the epidemic was caused by feeding cattle, who are normally herbivores, the remains of other cattle in the form of meat and bone meal (MBM), which caused the infectious agent to spread.[5][6] The origin of the disease itself remains unknown.

Link

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/bgh.htm

Not sure what you were getting at with that link I read through it a bit and it made me want to not eat (red) meat or drink milk even more than I do now.

 

[wicshade]

40% of fertalizer is man made using the haber proces, i could not find anything on how much we use manure for fertilization, and also you can use organic compost. the problem is that the haber proces is someone bad for the enviroment and it does not put many needed nutrients back into the soil.

I did think the wording of my quote was a bit strong on that one. I don't think we created anything new. However, I do think we are creating situations where there is more of a chance of these things happening.

most people are prety harsh towards this, it is fairly uncertain the effects that this will have in the long run.

yeah it that one source was pretty harsh on hormones, im just trying to promote the consumtion of higher grade meat, it is the low grad meat that you need to wory about (Mcdonalds.)

i think that wiki entry is old, i've heard that mad cow disease came from a prion that sheep carried. also if im not mistaken you have to injest brain or spinal matter to contract mad cow disease.

edit: after reasearching more into mad cow i think there is still a lot of uncertainty in how it is spread , yout might not have to eat ingest brain tissue to contract the disease, mad cow seems to be a little more comon then i thought, it makes me consider not eating beef.

 

[con]

I think it's naturally healthier
No it's not, it's against human nature, we are omnivores so we should eat meat, try raising a bear (omnivore) on only plants, result: a sissy bear. Try raising it on only meat you get an unhealthy bear, same applies to humans
we NEED both plants and animals to be healthy

bear was the first omnivore to pop in my mind, no real preference

It's better for the environment
first it was:
DONT DRIVE CARS THEY POLLUTE!!!
then scientist discovered that one cow generates pollution as 7-8 cars (dont know the exact number)
and now it's
DONT EAT COWS THEY POLLUTE!!!
so we should exterminate every animal on the planet because they pollute, so we can have clean air, open meadows, vast forests
but wait, plants need fertilizers & genetic modification & pesticides, or the just dont give enough yield so we need to expand in to the meadows and forests to compensate



Diseases - Animal and Human
if it were not for cows we would still be dying from the small pox,

Growth Hormones

just dont eat cows that are produced in this way


and about eating fish and not eating regular meat, well fishing has a huge environmental impact many species are brought to endangered list by overfishing

and i would always sell my 5 last years for "eat the meat" right
you all vegetarians will remember this post when you get osteoporosis when you hit 45

 

[Stevenpfo]

I think it's naturally healthier
No it's not, it's against human nature, we are omnivores so we should eat meat, try raising a bear (omnivore) on only plants, result: a sissy bear. Try raising it on only meat you get an unhealthy bear, same applies to humans
we NEED both plants and animals to be healthy

Are you suggesting that people who are vegans are "sissys"?

And since when did human nature matter? What is human nature? What you do? What humans did 100 years ago? what we did a year ago? It almost seems liek juman nature is whatever the hell we want it to be.

*cough*

The USDA's study on calcium and osteoporosis in women began with the premise that animal proteins create sulphur in the body, which leeches out calcium from the bones. The results, though, were more complex: the vegan subjects lost bone density at the same rate as their vegetarian and non-vegetarian peers; when put on a weight-bearing exercise regimen, the vegan subjects built bone density at a significantly higher rate than the other subjects. The researchers remark, "If you have less bone formation, the result is the same as if you had an increase in bone resorption. So, even though bone resorption was the same in both groups of volunteers, the lower amount of bone formation in the omnivore women could lead to a decrease in their bone density."

Link

*cough*

 

[con]

Are you suggesting that people who are vegans are "sissys"?

And since when did human nature matter? What is human nature? What you do? What humans did 100 years ago? what we did a year ago? It almost seems liek juman nature is whatever the hell we want it to be.

*cough*



Link

*cough*

that's vegan propaganda
vegan would be pwned by a meat eater

 

[Stevenpfo]

that's vegan propaganda
vegan would be pwned by a meat eater

Do you know what USDA stands for?

I think you're suggesting meat eaters are naturally stronger than vegans. I'll leave it up to you to prove that. I know you are wrong. Not only from some of the links and quotes i've already posted but by my own experiences and the strength and stamina I have now.

 

[con]

Do you know what USDA stands for?

I think you're suggesting meat eaters are naturally stronger than vegans. I'll leave it up to you to prove that. I know you are wrong. Not only from some of the links and quotes i've already posted but by my own experiences and the strength and stamina I have now.

i know waht does it stand for but it was infiltrated with vegans

vegans
Link1

meat eaters
Link2

please compare the muscle mass

 

[Stevenpfo]

i know waht does it stand for but it was infiltrated with vegans

vegans
Link1

meat eaters
Link2

please compare the muscle mass

Shut everything down! I loose!

Sooo... What? Vegans make up 1% of the population? If they're lucky?

Vegan bodybuilder champ.

Carl Lewis.

I think I may be done arguing with you, however. I'm not trying to prove veganism is the best, just that it is a viable diet. I'm not trying to show everyone why it is bad so they will stop eating meat. I'm showing why I don't want to eat meat and other such products. I think I have proven all of the above many times over.

 

[wicshade]

i question i have is do you eat sugar, also will vegans eat honey, don't know if bees are considered an animal or not.

im kinda of curious i've raised bees for several years, just wondering how vegans/vegetarians feel about sugar compared to honey.

 

[Stevenpfo]

It's been awhile since i've looked into either Wicshade. For me, right now I could care less about either. I know that some vegans won't eat honey.

If I remember correctly there are certain sugars you can buy for vegans that don't offend any sensibilities

The same pretty much goes for everything. You can find vegan cheese (I didn't like it), ice cream (really good, actually - lots of options), meat (pepperoni is the best), ground beef. Man, anything you can think of there is an alternative. The only things I can think of are maybe straight up chicken or steak. Maybe there is by now? It's been years. I think one of the major companies that makes the stuff is Yves or something like that.

 

[Ecofarm]

Sugar is usually from plants. Honey is an animal byproduct. I think vegans do not take honey despite the ecologic benefits of having bees in an ecosystem.

 

[Stevenpfo]

Sugar is usually from plants. Honey is an animal byproduct. I think vegans do not take honey despite the ecologic benefits of having bees in an ecosystem.

Bones or something like that is used to whiten a certain % of sugar.

I also think bees are killed off to harvest their honey. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Stevenpfo]

Out of curiosity I looked it up

Bees are flying insects closely related to wasps and ants.

 

[Atlas14]

Bones or something like that is used to whiten a certain % of sugar.

I also think bees are killed off to harvest their honey. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Not in the typical bee farms