Goz-12 - 5CC - Large map - Space Race

[zerksees]

IBT

Hittites and Germany sign MPP
I see German mech inf moving about
Hittites DOW Iroquois
Iroquois to build a city on the ruins of the last one I took
Seoul: tank -> tank; Pyong: tank -> tank; Nampo: tank -> tank

Turn 5: 1475 AD

Celts will talk. Make peace trading refining for 895 gold and world map
With some trepidation I disband our cav army in Nampo on a TOW infantry
Change Rojo palace pre-build to army build – will be done in 2

Gift mot transp to Byzantines – they get computers as their free tech
Buy computers from them for rocketry and 6600 gold

Sell mot transp to Babs at fire sale prices: collect a French worker, 41 gold and world map
They also get computers as their free tech – argh!

Sell computers to Iroquois for 11500 gold and world map to avoid further dilution

Gift mot transp to Russians – she gets fission as her free tech – finally. The bad news is she will not sell it for computers, rocketry and 23000 gold

Trade rocketry to Germans. Collect amphibious war and 2550 gold. I could have taken all their 8000 gold but decided the AW might be worth more in trade

Tried a spy plant in Russia. It fails and she DOW on us

Sell amphibious war to the Byzantines for 3900 gold
Sell amphibious war to Iroquois for 2900 gold

Change Rojo to SETI – still hope to build UN there

Convert our leader into an army and fill with tanks
Upgrade our flaks to mobile SAMs, and about half the inf upgrade to mech inf

IBT
Iro pop a city as predicted
BB: tank -> arty; Nampo: TOW inf -> tank
The people love zerksees and our palace gets another expansion. Can we trade that in for a tank?

Turn 6: 1480 AD

Sell chemistry to Hittites for 110 gold

Update rest of inf to mech inf

Tried spy plant on Iroquois – it fails. No DOW at least

IBT
Babs and Germans MA vs Russia
Iro and Russia make peace
Byz and Russia make peace
Iro kick us out and we leave
Seoul: tank -> tank; Pyong: tank -> mobile SAM

Turn 7: 1485 AD
Iroquois now have fission
Another spy plant on Iro fails.

I am desperate for some success on spy plants. So I put embassy in Hittite capital spending 128 gold. They have 69 spears and 66 3-man chariots. Tried a spy plant, and it works. Finally a good spy plant!

IBT
Byz want WM trade – no thanks
Celts and Germans make peace
Iro want MPP – we decline
Seeing panzers for the first time
BB: arty -> tank; Nampo: tank -> tank

Turn 8: 1490 AD

Finally success planting spy on Iroquois. They have 46 infantry, 16 TOW inf, 8 arty and a few misc units
For 4510 we safely steal a tech from them – choosing fission.

We have two uranium in our borders. Most the others have it too. This is bad. There is one unclaimed near German border – put a cav on it to keep control of it.
We do not have aluminum. Germans have 3 extra.

Attack Chebalynsk and raze it (Russian city just off our east border). Take out two rifle and a guerilla, costing one elite cav.

Germans will give 7190 gold, silks, aluminum and 152 gpt for fission. I think we should give our pre-build a couple more turns to build before trading fission

IBT
Celts and Russia embargo against us
Babs wreck the new Iro city with their cav stack
Seoul: tank -> tank; Pyong: mobile SAM -> mobile SAM

Turn 9: 1495 AD
Sell amphibious war to Babs for 1236 gold
Sell steel to Celts for 31 gold, 12 gpt and 4 workers

IBT
Babs want MA vs Celts – no thanks
BB: tank -> research lab; Nampo: tank -> research lab

Turn 10: 1500 AD
No trades made
We have a few units moving north in Russian territory
UN due in 4 turns
We have our tank army and 7 other tanks.

Summary

-Gold gained from:
Russia +45
Byz +3964 -6600
Iro +17842
Babs +1310
Celts +926
Germans +2500
Hittites +110
(does not count gpt payments we are receiving)

-Techs gained: Motorized transportation, rocketry, computers, fission
-Useless techs gained: democracy, free artistry, fascism
We are caught up in tech

Failed attack on Grand River

Next turnset:
-We may want to take control of the Russian aluminum. Send some more units and a worker up there to build a colony. Wait until we need it to take the city. Maybe rebuild a road on the north coast or build a transport to send the worker up there?
-Decide when/if we want to sell fission to Germany.

Could not get out of the 300 gpt payments to Iroquois – look for chances to get out of this.

Expect Germans, Iro, Aztecs to be the first with space flight. We should not have to give in to anymore demands as far as I can tell. I guess we could consider it if the Germans make small demands.

Germans may be in their golden age (could they have triggered it long ago with a wonder?)

Keep our gold up if possible so we can buy alliances, steal techs or sabotage.

Whomp I believe you are next

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice turns, Zerksees!

One thing is puzzling me though; you tried planting a Spy on Hiawatha three times in succession, succeeding on the third. I have always understood that one has to wait four turns after a failed attempt. Clearly that isn't the case, so can you clarify things for me? Is it failed Spy missions that it applies to?

 

[zerksees]

That's my understanding. If we get caught stealing then I would lay off a while. If the spy plant fails I am undeterred and just try the next turn. When Whomp gets back he may have further clarification

 

[Whomp]

OK good show Zerksees. I'm back and will try to get it rolling tomorrow.

Very strange on the spy. Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Here's Oystein's espionage missions article.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/espionage_missions.php

 

[zerksees]

Thanks for the link Whomp.

I think I was reading wrong. If I read Oynsteins article correctly, after the first plant failed, I had a 1 in 3 chance of having the flag removed and then succeeding the next turn. Since it was costing less than 200 gold I guess it was worth the cost to see if the flag was removed.

In theory the flag could stay on a long time, since there is no guarantee it will turn off on any given turn. Seems like the Hittite spy plant was just a waste of money - though it did make me feel better at the time.

 

[Whomp]

Pre-turn: Get a lay of the land. Wake a worker to build a airfield for the Russian offensive. Other than the UN I switch the builds to tanks since our oil deal is due next turn and we're not researching so research labs won't help us. Check to see where the global oilfields are. Wake some additional workers to start roading towards Russia.

IT Tanks finish and start more just in case.
1505 AD Do some work and build rails towards our aluminum colony. Bomb some roads around the colony area. We'll take the city next turn and cordon off the area. We can make peace with the Aztecs but no interest really.

IT Byz and Aztecs make peace. We lose our oil. The price increases from 24gpt to 50gpt. Renew it since we don't have much choice until we can get the Iroquois in war.
1510 AD Bomb the aluminum city and reveal 3 rifles. A bomber takes one of them out. Our tank shots twice, promotes and takes out both rifles. Raze Yekaterinburg and Leo's. Set up another airfield for the next Russian cities.
IT Russia and Germany make peace. Babs and Iroquois make peace. Lose a tank to a TOW.
1515 AD That TOW leaves 2 rifles in we take Yaktusk with 3 tanks (1st retreats) and 1508g. The Germans played mightily for peace it seems because they had about 8000g before and now have 0g. Lethal bombard the TOW and it's gone. Germany becomes furious. Hmm...with Russian peace I'm afraid they may start an MA. Hold some units back and start some mechs just in case.

IT Russia and Celts embargo ends. Russia declares on the Celts and then they declare on the Germans! OK this is a death wish for the Russians. They declare on Iroquois. Lose another tank to a TOW. This comes in...

1520 AD Start SETI in Rojo as a Apollo prebuild. Decline the UN vote. Bomb Kazan without much success taking only 1hp off the TOW. Still take the TOW and two rifles and another 2025g. Hit Novogorod with the army (5/13 though) and take two rifles. It leaves a guerilla. Germany becomes polite again. Do one of these...

IT Darn the Babs finish off the guerilla in Novogorad and....

1525 AD It seems the Germans have taken the Iroquois city that had oil. I plant a worker on the spot. I do the same thing near a Russian fur tile. Try to aggravate the Iroquois by trying to expose their spy. We're caught but they won't declare. Reestablish a spy there successfully.

IT Nada
1530 AD Establish 2 fur colonies and an oil colony. Sell rocketry to the Babs for 6100g. Think about a prebuild in the capital but it may be early. More bombers. Bomb around our aluminum and fur colonies.

IT Iroquois plant a new city where I had a uranium colony. No biggie on that one.
1535 AD Nothing to report.

IT Our incense and gpt for gems deal ends. Eliminate gems from the deal and restructure it so we give 14gpt for incense.
1540 AD Germany gets space flight so I cross my fingers and do this....

They have 33 panzers, 9 bombers, 13 arty and 150 mechs. Well that could be a tough nut to crack but we need to start our spaceship. Steal tech safely for 4480g and we get space flight. Sell it to the Iroquois for WM and 15497g. No harm considering they don't have aluminum. This brings our cash to 49775g. Switch SETI to Apollo in Rojo which is due in 2. Set up three other prebuilds in Nampo, Pyong and Seoul. Cockpit is 320s, docking bay is 160s and engine is 640s.

IT Our ROP with Babs cancels. I don't think it's necessary so I cancel our payment to them.
1545 AD Build some barricades on our oil and aluminum.

IT Byz and Germans sign a MPP. A Iroquois settler slips through and we'll probably lose a dyes colony unless the Germans hit the infantryman.
1550 AD Apollo comes in (forgot a picture) and switch our prebuilds. Nampo gets docking bay in 1, Pyong gets cockpit in 2 and Seoul will finish the engine in 4. Start a prebuild in Rojo and Bouncing Bucket. Bombard more roads.

Summary
We'll have plenty of cash for steals with 49804g. The prebuilds may be early so feel free to change these at some point and I'd rather not finish Manhattan Project in Bouncing Bucket. We have 3 turns left on our MA vs. the Aztecs with the Iroquois so make sure to cancel this. The Germans are taking cities all over including Salamanca. The Babs have some units running through our territory but they're no bother. Easy cannon fodder if we need to whack them. The tech situation is good since we're up techs on everyone but the Germans and Iroquois. We'll probably have to fight the Germans at some point since they have to fastest research rate and will be where our espionage hits most often.

Here's a view for our lurkers...

 

[zerksees]

Great work there Whomp. Looks like a fun turnset.

We can handle the Germans. Most of those 150 mech are defending their cities. With 49000 gold we can afford a few MA's if the DOW us. Building ship parts and war at the same time could be interesting, but manageable.

Now that we have a spy in Germany lets keep a check on their ship part count every turn, especially before we steal a tech in case we lose the spy.

Bucephalus you are next.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: You also have the cash to sabotage production, a useful spy mission indeed.

 

[Bucephalus]

OK, got it.

I assume we're stealing al the way now?

Regarding sabotage, it's something I'm unfamiliar with; can someone explain the procedure?

Any pointers regarding strategy?

 

[zerksees]

Stealing all the way unless some trade oppty comes up. You might wait a couple turns on a steal if you think some other AI could bring a difft tech to steal then trade - as long as it does not delay our ship part build.

Sabotage is a spy mission. The trick is to know what city is building something of value (like a spaceship part) and then do a sabotage mission on that city - basically it drains the production box and the victim has to start all over again. To figure out which city is building something important, you will have to investigate cities until you find which one is building it.

I have only rarely done these so I can't recall exactly where in spy missions it is. IIRC these missions will run at least 5000-6000 not counting what it takes to find the right city to hit.

I doubt you will need to sabotage during these 10 turns.

The other thing we can do it send a big stack and wreck their capital after they have built 7 or 8 ship parts.

I'd say the main things to do are keep up with techs, add more military if possible and try to keep the colonies out of enemy hands.

And since each of our cities is worth about 10000 gold, it would be important not to lose them. Panzers can move three in one turn. If there is any city they can hit immediately lets put some extra defensive units there so they have to earn it. I'd say 6-8 mech inf in a city they can reach.

Should we think about starting a war to get a leader to rush a ship part? Maybe against Babylon?

 

[Whomp]

The Germans and Iroquois are the only two civs at parity techwise. We've wiped out the bank from everyone as the Germans and Iroquois are the only two with 5,000g or more.

The Germans are the only risk we have of (The Iroquois don't have aluminum and are reeling from their war) building space parts I think we get a notification that they've finished Apollo so we can wait to sab their production until then. I don't think sabotage is the expensive spy mission but propaganda is.

If we start a war I'd start it with the Celts. They have oil, aluminum and a lux or two. The other advantage of taking them out is we can set up airfields to bombard the Germans aluminum in the south. I think with open space down there we could possibly hit all three aluminum sources the Germans have (there's one near New Berlin, north of Nuremburg and another close to the Celts iirc).

The Babs and Aztecs (once we make peace) are a little behind in techs and can help fund our gold and gpt so I'd leave them alone.

 

[Bucephalus]

If we start a war I'd start it with the Celts.

I've not had a chance to view the save yet; would that require a ROP?

 

[Whomp]

I've not had a chance to view the save yet; would that require a ROP?

I'm not 100% but I think you can move along the oil railnet but may need some roads down first. You can kind of see it in my last picture I posted on the minimap.

 

[zerksees]

I don't think sabotage is the expensive spy mission but propaganda is.

From my war academy article - recovering from last place after expansion phase:

Tried sabotage on production of an ICBM being built in Delhi. It cost 4776 in gold, but it worked.

Regarding the Celts - I think we have 5 more turns on a peace deal with them. There is definitely free zone to get you there, but it will need some roads through the jungle. We did not gift the Celts to the next age so they probably do not have mech inf yet. Bucephalus - if you want to leader farm, then set up the road and go for it after the deals end. It might be worth our while to plant a spy and get a look at their military size first. Perhaps the Baylonians or Germans would join us in our effort.

I was thinking Babylon because I have seen a lot of cavs and it could make for some easy leader farming, plus they have a lot of annoying cities nearby. I like the Celts idea better though.

 

[Bucephalus]

Overview:

Probably the quietest turnset I've played in a long time. I concentrated solely on increasing our military 'presence'. I put a SAM Battery in each city and split the builds between MI's and Tanks. I saw little point in pursuing war; we have everything we need just as we are - money to burn, all necessary resources, and have such production capacity as to render MGL's largely un-needed.

None of our rivals have begun their SS.
Our only military threat comes from Germany, and - to a lesser extent - Babylon, if they get oil from somewhere.
Iroquois are nearly finished.

I cancelled the pre-builds for two reasons, 1) of the five techs Germany could have been researching, only two gave SS parts; 2) both of the parts in question could be built from scratch in four turns. In either case there was a high likelihood of a very expensive something-or-other being built. This approach was vindicated when it took until turn eight until I had a tech to steal. The tech in question was 'Satellites' which I safely stole from Bismark, and we now will have our fourth SS part in two turns.

I've put a barrier of slaves around our Aluminium colony to prevent anyone settling it.
We are at peace with the world.

For the record:

IBT:

Germans capture Iro Settler, saving our 'Dyes' in the process.

1555 AD:

Nampo > SS Docking Bay > SAM Battery(1)
Rojo > MI

IBT:

Byz/ Babs MA Celts

1560 AD:

Pyong > SS Cockpit > SAM Battery.
Bouncing Bucket > MI > SAM Battery.
Nampo > SAM Battery > MI.
Rojo > MI > SAM Battery.
IBT:

Lose Ivory

1565 AD:

Pyong > SAM Battery > MI
BB > SAM Battery > MI
Rojo > SAM Battery > MI
Trade Gems to Babs for Ivory + 20gpt.

IBT:

Byz DOW Aztecs
Deal ends with Iro (300gpt back); renegotiate peace.

1570 AD:

Nampo > MI > MI
Buy Silks from Bismark for 14gpt.

IBT:

Celts/ Babs sign peace.
Lose airstrip to Babs cultural expansion.

1575 AD:

BB > MI > MI
Pyong > MI > MI
Rojo >MI > MI
Seoul > SS Engines > SAM Battery
Sign Peace with Monty;
Trade Furs to Monty for Wines.

IBT:

Germany/ Aztecs sign Peace.
Bismark demands TM + 100g - Sure, no problemo!

1580 AD:

Nampo > MI > Tank
Seoul > SAM Battery > MI

IBT:

Nada.

1585 AD:

Pyong > MI > Tank
BB > MI > Tank
Rojo > MI > Tank

IBT:

Iroquois/ Hittites sign Peace
Iroquois are losing cities to panzers, and it's looking terminal for them.

1590 AD:

Seoul > MI > MI
Nampo > Tank > Tank

IBT:

Iroquois/ Byz sign Peace

1595 AD:

Pyong > Tank > Tank
Rojo > Tank > Tank
BB > Tank > Tank
Block Babylon Settler near our Dyes.
Germany has Satellites;
Safely steal Satellites
Nampo building SS Thrusters (3)

IBT:

Nada.

1600 AD:

Nada.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Goz12_1600AD.SAV

 

[Whomp]

Awesome work Buce!

We may be able to do this peacefully till the end unless someone catches our spy on a steal. We would almost like to see the tech pace pick up now.

 

[Bucephalus]

Awesome work Buce!

We may be able to do this peacefully till the end unless someone catches our spy on a steal. We would almost like to see the tech pace pick up now.

Thanks, Whomp.

Unfortunately, I think we will need to stir up war for the Germans now and then; it seems that as long as they are fighting, they won't build SS parts (or Wonders, think of the Theory of Evolution), but if things get too peaceful they may well begin their SS.
They have signed Peace with the Aztecs, and have nearly defeated 'Iroquois';
I think we possibly need to engineer a conflict between Germany and an Aztec/ Babylon MA; I'm sure Zerksees will have a few ideas on that!

 

[zerksees]

Who me?

Looks really good there Bucephalus. I am sure the Germans will be glad to MA with us against ... well anyone really. Maybe they are mobilized and can't build the Apollo program.

I'll probably get started tonight

 

[zerksees]

OK. Tech pace is slow, so I am embarking on a strategy to speed it up.

Pre-flight
Change all tank builds to research labs.
Take out barbs threatening our workers near aluminum
Pillage some tiles, block Bab settlers

IBT

Bab settler is threatening our dyes again
Pyong: res lab -> arty
Rojo: res lab -> SETI
BB: res lab -> arty

Turn 1:
Superconductor can be completed in 25 at 100%. Sorry I should have checked with you guys, but I decided to go for it. It is furthest up the tree and the AI will hopefully research the others. When SETI is done, hopefully we will gain a turn.

Sell satellites to Iroquois for all their gold – 1340.

IBT
Our trade deal for oil with Germany ends
The trade screen pops up indicating Bismarck wants 50 gpt. I am temporarily stunned that he is demanding 50 gpt, but shortly after realize that is what we were paying him for oil.
Seoul: res lab -> arty
Nampo: thrusters -> res lab

Turn 2:
Superconductor due in 23 turns
Join some workers and irrigate a few tiles, now superconductor in 22

IBT
Germany and Iroquois make peace. Germans have no wars atm – this is bad news
Seoul and Pyong: arty -> arty
BB: arty -> tank
Germans start SETI in Munich

Turn 3:
SC in 21
Paranoia sets in. Investigate Munich, which is putting out 22 spt. IIRC it will be 30+ turns to complete for them to complete SETI. We’ll have it in 9 or so.

IBT
Aztecs demand space flight. We decline. They declare war.
Germans warn us about trespassing. I take the opportunity to sign MA vs Aztecs for 550 gold IIRC
Nampo: res lab -> tank
Seoul: arty -> MI

Turn 4:
SC in 20
Celts have found a way to get two tiles from dyes with a settler.
Not much else - I did have quite a bit of pollution to clean up, probably every other turn at least

IBT
Pyong: arty -> MI
BB: arty -> tank

Turn 5:
SC in 19
Not much. Out alliance with Germany is working well as I have not seen a single Aztec unit.
Decide we should build some hydro plants. They will create less pollution, or we can keep them as backup if the regular coal plant gets hit by bombers.

IBT
Seoul: MI -> hydro plant
Nampo: tank -> tank

Turn 6:
SC in 18
Someone has ecology.
Somewhere in here I MM the cities and switch the scientists back to tax collectors with no change in turns to complete SC
Not much

IBT
Celts plop city near dyes, will require 1 culture expand to take one of the dyes and two to get the other. Game should be over by then
Pyong: MI -> hydro plant
BB: tank -> ?

Turn 7:
SC in 17
Germans and Babs have ecology.
Try to plant a spy in Babs for 204 gold. It fails. Hammy declares war on us.
Pay Germans 870 gold to join us in the melee.

Put our arty and troops to work:
Take 2 rifles and raze Lasra. That felt good
Defeat a rifle in the jungle and convert settler to two workers – costing a mech inf
Take TOW and flak and raze Adab
Take TOW and rifle and Tell Wilaya is razed. Gain 116 gold (forgot to record gold from the others)
Take TOW and rifle and raze Telloh +118 gold
Take TOW and Nina (new city) is autorazed +120 gold
Take 2 inf and Khorsabad is razed +122 gold
Take inf and rifle and Karana is razed +123 gold
Take 2 rifles and take control of nearby airport

Overall 16-1 and gained 9 more slave workers. Also grabbed some misc slave workers in the open

I tried to be peaceful

IBT
No Bab counterattacks
Renew incense deal with Germans for 14 gpt
Namep: tank -> tank

Turn 8:
SC in 16
Now Iroquois have [B]ecology[/B]. They will sell it for 30,000 gold. Instead we attempt safe steal for 4604 gold and it works.
Sell it to Byzantines for 1440 gold and world map

Attempt spy plant in Babylon for 204 gold. It works

Take 3 units and Moscow is razed +122 gold
Bomb out a cav in the open
Take 4 units and Novogorod is razed costing 1 tank. JS Bachs is razed +124 gold
Take 3 units and Vladivostok falls +127 gold
Elite tank defeats flak in the open and generates a leader.
Take 4 units and Yaroslavl is razed. Cost 2 MI. +194 gold
Seems it’s [30-4] so far

Babs have no more settlements in our proximity to east or south or former Russian territory

IBT
About 24 panzers enter our territory. Hopefully they are just passing through on the way to the Bab city up north.

Turn 9:
SC in 15
Germans have 71 panzers, 189 MI, 16 bomber, 17 arty, 9 TOW and some misc. 24 panzers is half their fighting force. We can take them. I contemplate “remove or declare” for about a second.

Instead I play it safe. Just in case I have to defend against Germany, I pull back most units to protect Rojo, Seoul and Nampo – splitting units between them. Left Pyong open since it can’t be reached. Put workers across north border to form a blockade. I can’t have dozens of panzers passing through.

Babs have 61 TOW, 12 arty, 33 infantry, 20 ironclads and some misc

IBT
German panzers exit without incident, as my land blockade spares the Babs a city, and the incident ends without incident

Turn 10
SC in 14
Not much
No one else has space ship parts yet.

Now if you wanted to put a big dent in German panzer supply, you could put a worker on every hill or mountain in our territory and remove the land blockade to the north. The Germans would re-enter in force. Issue the remove or declare ultimatum. Clearly they would declare, and we could take out 20+ panzers in the comfort of our own territory. Then buy the rest of the known world into MA vs the Germans. After a few turns the panzer supply would be down and we could start wrecking cities.

It would also give us the option to make peace with Babs and Aztecs who are already at war with Germany.

If I had five more turns I think I would have checked if you guys wanted to try this.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27707/goz12_1650AD.SAV

 

[Bucephalus]

Nicely done, Zerksees.

I tried to be peaceful

And for a whole seven turns, too!

Germans have 71 panzers, 189 MI, 16 bomber, 17 arty, 9 TOW and some misc. 24 panzers is half their fighting force. We can take them. I contemplate “remove or declare” for about a second.

More like 34%, but I see why you were tempted.

Now if you wanted to put a big dent in German panzer supply, you could put a worker on every hill or mountain in our territory and remove the land blockade to the north. The Germans would re-enter in force. Issue the remove or declare ultimatum. Clearly they would declare, and we could take out 20+ panzers in the comfort of our own territory. Then buy the rest of the known world into MA vs the Germans. After a few turns the panzer supply would be down and we could start wrecking cities.

It would also give us the option to make peace with Babs and Aztecs who are already at war with Germany.

If I had five more turns I think I would have checked if you guys wanted to try this.

I can't comment definitively until I get a chance to look at the save but I'd say it would depend on what kind of damage we could do. If we can reach core cities or deprive them of a key resource it would be an option worth considering, but I can't see that there's a lot to gain from just razing some 'satellite' towns.

They have a long border with Babylon so there will be plenty of fighting going on with those Panzers; might their numbers drop anyway, without our intervention?