GR23 - AWDG vs 30 Civs

[Greebley]

On techs:

Currency- needed for Markets
Construction-needed to get towns above size 6 (more unit support and stonger towns)
Map Making-We will need Vet boats to have any chance of getting to the other civs across the water (assuming this is the case which is likely)>
CoL - will make more cities productive

Not sure which one we want first. CoL is probably least important.

I don't think we turn off research for a very long time. This is not shaping into a game where lots of Legion will allow us progress due to the need to cross water. If we don't reach the modern era when the AI does we lose via UN.

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Agree on waiting for Knights for the Army. I really suspect cleaning off our continent will not be hard with four armies. India and Mongols are fairly weak.

 

[vmxa]

I would go for Construction, IF we have lots of towns that will need an aqua to get to size and they are more or less core towns.

Currency and Markets are less valuable, if we are only going to have 2 lux for a long time and will be low on taxes. It moves up as either of those things change.

MM is a tough call as I have no clue about where land may lay. If we in fact only have Mongols and India on this land mass, then China must have a path that we can cross with galleys. Not sure how important vets are to that goal.

Have we seen many boats from either the Vikes or China? If not, then we may not need vets.

Col I agree that can be last. I would rather have some aqua's than some courts at this stage.

We pretty much do not stop research, when we do not have the GLB. We have no means to get techs until we have spies, so we have to do it ourselves.

 

[ThERat]

If we are sure that we only face another 2 opponents, why don't we try and send out some suicide galleys once we acquire MM so that we get more contacts and cheaper techs.

As for research order, I would go for the cheapest in order as we have to get all techs anyway ourselves.

 

[ThERat]

and here the proof that NP is right (my face has been edited out of that picture though)

 

[I. Larkin]

I think "compromise" variant is to research MM. IF we found Japan we may slow down research slightly to have cash-rush options. I think some Markets will help more then Aqueducts. Also Currency Cheaper.
So my bet is MM, Currency, Construction, CoL.

 

[M60A3TTS]

Looking good so far, the Mongols are running out of real estate and aren't going to be around much longer. India still has some cities, so they will be around for a little while.

I would do currency ahead of MM. Once we're a monarchy we will benefit more from markets.

 

[vmxa]

I think some Markets will help more then Aqueducts. Also Currency Cheaper.
So my bet is MM, Currency, Construction, CoL.

How are Markets going to help is more than aqua's? You get the happy boost when you have 3 lux, we have 2 and no knowledge of where to get a third.

The 50% boost on taxes, not much when you are running 10% tax level. Size 7 does at least two things for you. It acts as a wall and we gain the higher unit support. It of course does more than that as more pop means more of something.

So at the very least I would think Construction should go ahead of Currency. Map Making could go first as it will likely be the cheapest as we know several nations that have that knowledge.

 

[Greebley]

We will be running higher than 10% when we switch to Monarchy. Unit costs will be fairly high.

I agree on MM first - we need to build Galleys to find the other civs and the shape of our land. Our ships may not yet be attacked especially if they are vet.

For currency vs construction, I would count the number of towns in the size 4-5 range that need the aquaduct. Each one is worth 2 gold + benefit of increased size. We can then compare that to the aprox value of Markets. Assume we will run max science we can for now because Japan is unlikely to be accessible (unless we meet them of course). Most civs reachable by Galley have probably visited already.

If most of our core towns are on the river, then currency will win, otherwise construction is the win. From the map we look sort of in-between, where the decision won't matter too much.

 

[vmxa]

If it is a close call, I would go for the aquas as the sooner they are started the sooner they are up. The extra pop will also make extra coin in those places. If the cost between the two techs is great, then you could go with the cheaper one.

 

[Northern Pike]

the proof that NP is right

I agree with Vmxa--marketplaces will be clearly inferior to aqueducts until we have a third luxury. This is particularly true because we're commercial, and our city centres generate three more commerce at size seven than at size six. I did the math on this in a post when we were playing the Koreans, also commercial, and it isn't close.

 

[Greebley]

I wasn't considering the change in the center square in my calculations and realize I don't really know how it works. What are the rules for this?

 

[Matt_G]

I did a lot of testing when I made my city production spreadsheet.
I have attached a zipped .rtf file that I wrote up at that time for Sirp.
It should answer your questions, though its probably more info that you want.

EDIT:
I can't seem to post an attachment for some dang reason.
I'll have to wait and see what comes of my post in Site Feedback.
In the mean time, if you want this Greebley, just PM me your e-mail addy and I'll send it along.

Another Edit:
Just saw the announcement saying file uploads are disabled because of the move to the new server.
No wonder it wasn't working.

 

[Northern Pike]

Matt, thanks for trying. I'd like to see your spreadsheet when it's possible to post again.

I wasn't considering the change in the center square in my calculations and realize I don't really know how it works. What are the rules for this?

In the normal case, that is to say for a non-river, non-capital city in monarchy, the centre tile goes from one commerce to two when the town reaches size seven, but if the civ in question is commercial it jumps from one to four. If the city is on a river, all the absolute values increase by one but the differentials are the same. Commercial capitals sometimes produce one less commerce in the centre tile than these principles would suggest, perhaps because they aren't allowed to piggyback the commercial bonus and the capital bonus, but I haven't really looked into this.

 

[I. Larkin]

OK, OK. Looks that all agreed MMaking first and then we have chanses to think once more. Good idea to have HE before revolt, will McMg to have it soonner.

 

[ThERat]

I think in the long run it does not matter which tech we get first. We will get them in 4-6 turns anyway, I assume.

We have to make a decision once we hit the MA. Are we heading all out for cavalry and skip all other techs first or do we take chivalry for knights in between?
I would suggest to take engineering as the first tech for the river crossings. Feudalism has less value for us anyway as we have legions, maces aren't that much better anyway.

 

[vmxa]

Middle Age choices will depend on what we find out about the map in the mean time. If we are isolated for a long time, I would expect MT to be the way to go.

If we find some land close enough to be reached, then Knights will be useful. In the long run knight armies have a huge shelf life.

 

[Greebley]

I tend to favor Chivalry because of Knight Armies and also knights upgrade to Cavalry for only 30 gold so you actually get more Cavalry by getting Chivalry first and upgrading even though you get Mil Trad later.

 

[Matt_G]

Here are those files NP. Greebley, you may find the rtf file of interest.

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks a lot. Your thorough treatment of the rules for capitals is especially valuable.

 

[Greebley]

Yes very informative, thank you. I understand now why I have always been confused

That means in AW when you have need of full unit support in Monarchy, there is at least a 6 gold advantage of size 6 over size 7. Makes Aquaducts very competitive even in terms of gold.