GR23 - AWDG vs 30 Civs

[vmxa]

Yes, I was taking it for granted that we'd adjust the MM of Aurelianorum when we did the pop-rush, but I should have mentioned it.

Management won't do anything for the town, unless we net at least one more shield. All the times are irrigated, so moving citizens around will not generate any additional shields.

It will help, if we take the wheat and then mine 1 or 2 tiles, but only if the corruption does not get the extra shield. I am guessing it is 50%, so 2 more shield may be needed.

The we have 3 net and get a settler in 10 turn. The wheat give +6 unless mined. So we could grow faster than the 2 needed for a settler and that is without a granary.

 

[I. Larkin]

Management won't do anything for the town, unless we net at least one more shield. All the times are irrigated, so moving citizens around will not generate any additional shields.

It will help, if we take the wheat and then mine 1 or 2 tiles, but only if the corruption does not get the extra shield. I am guessing it is 50%, so 2 more shield may be needed.

The we have 3 net and get a settler in 10 turn. The wheat give +6 unless mined. So we could grow faster than the 2 needed for a settler and that is without a granary.

Miscalculate with Inceses. Thought we could get third lux. MCMG Aurelianorum may give 10+ fpt. It is resonable to grow Aurelianorum with Granary and make it a Sci farm + settler factory.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Change to granaries as discussed. Aurellianorum's granary rushed. For Neapolis, it is 30 shields so I will wait to check it when it 20 or less, and see how the timing works out with and without the rush.

By raising science to 80% and creating a single scientist, we can get Poly in 1. I do so.


IBT: Start Monarchy

510 AD: Armies need healing so only kill a few units. The 3 Elite generate no leader.
Science back to 50% with Monarchy in 29.

IBT: nothing much.

520 AD: We are running high unit costs so I start some more settlers.
Build Tyrus. Neapolis timing works better with a rush I think. Otherwise we build Granary with no food in stock.
Move on Rheims (behind choke). Some workers shifted to providing roads through land outside our Territory.

IBT: Very few enemy units. This is one reason a leader is hard.


530: First attack on Rheims. Only 2 avail attack. Built Verona

540 AD: Capture Rheims.

I am slowly building roads to get our units toward the choke. Workers are starting to arrive at front.
We could have coordinated the building of roads with our push forward better, I feel. I think if we ever feel we are going to be able to go on the offensive, then plan ahead and build the roads we need to get to the front.


550 AD: Our first Casualties as 2 Archer prove very hard to kill - taking out 2 Legion first.
I am starving Rheims to size 1 (next turn). We can later replace if we so desire. Capitol started Heroic Epic.
Built Corfinium.

560 AD: Aurellianorum unfortunately already had been rushed and only generates a single shield now. We forgot to take into account the effect of building new cities all closer than it is. I set 3 scientists which is the minimum for a content city to help our Monarchy project. It will grow in 4 and build a worker in 6. Unlikely to be able to build settlers without rushing.
Attack Krarakoriam - the Choke city
Build Mediolanum

Note that I am continuing to emphasize settlers so that we can switch to Monarchy and have some unit support. Also smaller cities don't starve as much.
Most core towns have started libraries. We don't need more units at the moment - though we could use some more workers.

IBT: First Wonder notice - Vikings started Leo's. An indication of where the AI is in terms of science, but more importantly: Vikings can now build Berserkers.
We may want to keep 2 units in coastal towns Archer landing on coast not in our lands.

570 AD: Legion lost to Archer. Destroyed Indus a recently built city.
Built Traveri, Augustorium, and Sirmium
We have now pushed the AI back completely to the choke.

IBT: The Indians are sending a large number of units at us now after almost none for most the turn.

580 AD: Finally kill off Spears in Karakorium, but it has Archers too.
Found Trapezus, Bagacum

IBT: India decides to attack 3 legion on a Hill, Kill one (from full health) and promotes one to Elite.

590 AD: Karakorium is finally Razed. 2 Armies went into the red on the attack so the third is covering them both. Armies will have to heal next turn.
Mongols have 4 cities left.

600 AD:
The turn we have all been waiting for: I get not one, not two, but three Leaders this turn while killing off a decent sized Indian sword stack. I rushed the pentagon and built 2 more Armies.



The game didn't want my choice of the FP to look bad. Probably felt sorry for me.

Notes:
My goal of filling the land is close to completion. It may have cost us a bit in the short run, but will make Monarch much much easier to switch to. I think we can safely switch immediately with 5 Armies.

Teurnia is building the Pentagon next turn. It is currently on the front but that should change soon and I don't think it is at risk with us having 5 armies.

Remember not to fill all Five Armies with 4 units! It currently appears there are only 2 civs on our land mass. I would say 2 for defense of our home is sufficient

 

[Greebley]

So final results on the Granary issue: A complete bust due to my building new cities. At one shield per turn it is a lousy settler factory.

I will state again just to make sure:

Don't fill all the Armies with 4 units or they will be stuck on what could be a fairly small landmass.

I only saw India and the Mongols attack from land. Either they block the other civs or there is only enough land for 3 out of 30 civs. The latter is more likely. [Edit:Can't remember if we killed a civCiv already which would be 4/30]

One army is still empty so if we want, we can leave it empty until we can ship it elsewhere. That may be a bit of time though. However I think 4 armies will be sufficient to handle the nearly dead Mongols and the so-so Indians.

Roster:
Greebley - Just Played
I. Larkin - Up
Northern Pike - On Deck
M60A3TTS
vxma
ThERat (back soon enough to play)
markh

 

[vmxa]

MCMG Aurelianorum may give 10+ fpt. It is resonable to grow Aurelianorum with Granary and make it a Sci farm + settler factory.

Not interested in MM for food as it means very little with 2 net shields. We are stuck waiting got 15 turns or pop rushing. It is for sure we could get plenty of food, but not so sure you want to be pop rushing all over the place.

My only point is that it is shields that will limit the speed you can get out anything. If you can up those, you got something. If you cannot you do not need to waste time on a granary. You can grow pop at what every rate you want.

 

[vmxa]

Greebley, I don't think the FP was a bad call, we could have had the same back luck with the HE. In the end we will get our share and the good news was, we need not really need those leader during the phase they did not show up. It was always a toss up.

As to the granary, it was always a bust. It just did not have any shields and we had little chance to improve tiles for shields. OTOH, it is not a big deal either way. You end up paying maint for a structure that will double the growth in a place that could has made a pop in 2 turns already, if you wanted it.

 

[Northern Pike]

Congratulations on the Leader breakthrough.

So final results on the Granary issue: A complete bust due to my building new cities.

Sooner or later having a granary in a town with Aurelianorum's growth potential will help us, and getting it for pop points before we leave despotism is the next thing to getting it free. The town's shield potential right now doesn't concern me at all. I'd be happy if, once in monarchy, we cash-rushed a worker for merging there every other turn for at least a hundred turns.

 

[vmxa]

That is 2000 gold, a lot of cash. Sounds like that free granary is not completely free.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'm not sure how you break down the numbers to get that total. The hundred gold the granary would cost in maintenance over a hundred turns in my example is a real cost, of course. But the maximum of 1800 gold it might cost to rush fifty workers for merging wouldn't be an expense related to the granary, but an excellent investment which would pay for itself manyfold. I don't mean to rehash old debates, but we don't usually get anything like the full possible benefit from merging in these games.

 

[ThERat]

Hi guys...

am halfway back from Vancouver...stuck in Hongkong for a few hours...NP, what did you say about the weather in Seattle and Vancouver?

My gf took a picture of me that says it all. Only need her to send the softcopy over and I will post it here...

Anyway Greebley's leader luck seems just right, but Seattle is even greater. Anyone out there got a job for me there?

 

[Greebley]

We couldn't afford every turn at 80 gold a pop, but we could rush every other turn at 36 gold if we wished. That would be much more cost effective.

Note that until the unhappiness wears off we won't be doing much. It requires 3 specialists at size 6.

 

[vmxa]

I'm not sure how you break down the numbers to get that total. The hundred gold the granary would cost in maintenance over a hundred turns in my example is a real cost, of course. But the maximum of 1800 gold it might cost to rush fifty workers for merging wouldn't be an expense related to the granary, but an excellent investment which would pay for itself manyfold. I don't mean to rehash old debates, but we don't usually get anything like the full possible benefit from merging in these games.

I know the cost of the rush has nothing to do with the granary itself, it is not likely we will be doing a rush every other turn anyway. Maybe every 4 or so.

My only point is that the granary was not needed. The town could have grown every other turn without it. I do not see the need to grow faster than that. So I was hoping someone could explain it to me, but either I am too dense or no one can.

The whole thing was started to get settlers out faster, but again the granary did little to get them out faster as the limitation was not growth, it was shields.

The place could have been +10 and that is more than fast enough. Anyway it is a moot point now.

 

[Greebley]

I. Larkin,
It would probably be a good idea to go through the cities and MM them. I often do this at the end, but not this time. We may not be using the best squares everywhere.

For some towns I just wasn't sure what to build. Barracks seemed bad when they have so few shields, we don't need more cats. I put them on workers (we still have a lot of land to improve) or libraries because we still have a lot of land to improve, but go ahead and pick something else if you want. We could just build up shields with Libraries and change them to whatever we wish later.

Most core cities are still working on Libraries. It was my feeling that we had enough units to last us through Anarchy. I am still assuming we will revolt when we get Monarchy thought it might be worth waiting until the HE finishes so it is active during the Anarchy period.

 

[Northern Pike]

My only point is that the granary was not needed. The town could have grown every other turn without it. I do not see the need to grow faster than that. So I was hoping someone could explain it to me, but either I am too dense or no one can.

OK, I'll take one more shot at it. Yes, we can see how Aur could reach +10 food without a granary. But with the granary, which makes +5 food good enough:

1. We can have the town work shield-bearing tiles, possibly mined plains. If the granary does absolutely nothing except to get Aur up to two shields at two-turn growth, cutting the cost of worker rushes from 36 to 32 gold, it'll go from costing us 1 gpt to saving us 1 gpt.

2. It'll be much easier to have the town support scientists while still growing every two turns, if that's what we want.

3. Aur won't need as many of the high-food tiles in the area to grow every two turns. This is particularly important, because we haven't begun fully to develop that explosively fertile floodplain river; we need to put down three more cities there, as indicated below. All five of the river cities in this plan will be able to reach size seven, in monarchy.

 

[Northern Pike]

It might be worth waiting until the HE finishes so it is active during the Anarchy period.

I strongly agree. We may be facing the last good stacks we'll see for quite a while just when we discover Monarchy, so it'll be worth holding off briefly on the revolt to maximize our chances of stockpiling some empty armies.

 

[vmxa]

I agree that if you can get some workers in to up the shields, you got something. The part I always had trouble with is the rushing part. We have 222 gold and -11gpt, not going to be sparing money for rushes like that.

I just did not see any money for rushing workers for some time. I like your explanation though. If you have the money to do all this rushing, then it is worth it, I am dubious about that prospect. I foresee an occasional rush, not much more, but I could be wrong.

 

[Greebley]

I also notice that Auruellium grew to size 7 so definitely check that it won't riot.

Agree with NP's plan to place more cities in the FP. They need not be big so a tighter city placement makes sense. Worker output for merges could really help other slow growth towns. [Edit: Settling up to the choke may have higher priority though. I would hurry a Barracks on the front for healing (tree chopping, rushing,etc.)]

 

[Northern Pike]

NP, what did you say about the weather in Seattle and Vancouver?

No great surprise, unfortunately. I look forward to the picture.

 

[I. Larkin]

I. Larkin,
It would probably be a good idea to go through the cities and MM them. I often do this at the end, but not this time. We may not be using the best squares everywhere.

For some towns I just wasn't sure what to build. Barracks seemed bad when they have so few shields, we don't need more cats. I put them on workers (we still have a lot of land to improve) or libraries because we still have a lot of land to improve, but go ahead and pick something else if you want. We could just build up shields with Libraries and change them to whatever we wish later.

Most core cities are still working on Libraries. It was my feeling that we had enough units to last us through Anarchy. I am still assuming we will revolt when we get Monarchy thought it might be worth waiting until the HE finishes so it is active during the Anarchy period.

What to build next strongly depend on our future research plan. Are we going to stop after Monarchy? Or we want Currency for Markets for effective short rush? Or we also want Construction and MMking? I think we may want to avoid Feudalism, but without it we cant get Knights and Invention... As I wrote before thinks depend on chanses to tke TGL just with Legions, in this case obviously all techs will come "themselves", and no need to research anything beyong Currency and MMking.
We may fill Army just with 1 Leg, it will "fast Legion", transportable on Galley.
Got file, open it. Some problem with Neapolis: 7 spt not enough for SF. May I disband spear and then it will work as WF?

 

[Northern Pike]

We're definitely going to research past Monarchy. I'd slightly favour MM over Construction as our next choice.

You've identified a real problem at Neapolis, but it's not worth disbanding units which will be useful all game as MP to deal with it. It's not a disaster if the town runs as a five-turn rather than a four-turn settler pump until our anarchy, and we may hope that monarchy will solve the problem after that.

Please leave the fifth army completely empty. We don't need to use it now and the right play may be to wait to fill it with knights.