GR23 - AWDG vs 30 Civs

[I. Larkin]

I. Larkin

"Now our Army competetive until AIs will have Mil. Traditions. What do you think about an idea to stop research and connect/disconnect Iron?"

No idea why we would want to cut Iron, is it to try to keep it from depletion?
Anyway it sounds like a bit of an exploit.
It is "allowed" exploit.
Well, but if we stop research we will have money for upgrade warriors to Legions. And we may get a lot more Legions fast. Before GP Rome's empire may expand a lot. Well, it is difficult to make plans until we don't know where TGL. That's why I think some curraghs/galleys may be usefull to find out where Japans live.

Research should go on till we get Monarchy at least. We want to get out of despotism. The longer it takes the larger we will be and the longer our anarchy.

Monarchy "very expensive"... but if it is a "plan"...

"1) Workers stack 7 and 6 will cut forest at the same 2 turns as 4. It is resonable to have 4 slaves stack."

What a relvelation, yeah I shove slaves out of my way a few times. Mostly to get them out of harms way, but other times I just could not count correctly.
We are past the stage were we need to get every drop from a slave.

OK. Probably it is minor. Sorry for this notice


"2) Why Temple at Rome? Normally Capital has less corruption and generate more % Lux then others."

I am sure I said why I started a temple, reread the log. Actually the capitol has zero corruption. No need to point out the obvious.

"3) Why barracks in Veli again? If we have Granary, probably Lib, Galleys, Settlers, Catapults?"

No need to make galley in this game. They can only do bad things, like find new enemies or sink. A rax is required to make troops, Veli will probably make settlers and troops. No cats, well any coastal town could make a cat for ping purposes. I don't even know if I made the barrack to tell you the truth.

I sold it in my preturn and thought that City change "specialisation", as we discussed... Got surprise...
"4) First of all Granary better to have in Cyties with max fpt, like Neapolis. Even small pop-rush is an option."

I would not want more than 2 or 3 granaries and since they are hard to build, put them any place that can do it and make settlers, we do not have any great food bonus towns.

It is 3 Cities with large fpt. Let build Granaries there. Veli first. I meant short poprush Granary. Say from 20 to ->40 schields.

Neapolis is a fine place, but we do not have a granary there and I would wait till the Legion is done to have another gun in case of future landings.

I doubt we will need to pop rush settler, until we get very very late in the game and are trying to fill lots of empty spaces.

Much of the time we will have to be cautious about settling as we cannot afford to be over extended.

I think visible area can be settle for sure asap

"5) What our research plan? Is it beline to Monarchy or what?"

Good question, I saw no place, so that is the way I would go and I had to make the call.

It is a central question now.
We have many options IBT 1) no research (now) and upgrade warriors to Legions.
and 5) Military traditions ASAP.
Obviously Monarchy is usfull as it allows cash short rush and remove penalty. But what else? Currency? Construction? Engineering?

I started a temple in Rome, with the idea of letting it get bigger.

Indeed, but what I tried to say was that 20% lux ensure more happy faces Capital anyway. I thint Temple is to expensive.

 

[Greebley]

Cutting the Iron and reconnecting means a cost of 40 gold per legion at the cost of 40 research (since we don't have libs or markets).

That would be one more legion a turn or is it 2? I would only do this if it more legions will really allow us to advance faster and allow us a shorter front line or the legions are/will be really needed. We have to self research so cannot turn off research for very long. The longer we have Cavalry and the AI doesn't have Infantry the better - this is a primary time for advancement.

If lack of settlers is the primary reason for lack of advancement, then more units doesn't help as much. Killing off small AI cities only helps if we can fill in the lands gained.

Agree with the Monarchy call BTW.

 

[vmxa]

I guess what I have not done well, is making my position clear. Settlers we want and we need. I could do little about that during my set as I was very much concerned about incoming.

It turns out that the Mongols turned around and I was able to deal with the troops Ghandi sent. I did not know that at the start as I saw many stacks, some with 8 or 10 units.


I reacted by making troops everywhere and getting most of the cats to the focal point. Moved workers out of the way and not worry a great deal about what they did, so long as they were A) safe and B) busy.

BTW 7 workers will cut a forest and road it in one turn and I wanted to get roads as rivers and forest are a double edge sword. Anyway at the end I could see we have enough to deal with the troops and could get some settlers, granaries and maybe other items going.

I never cut roads as I see it as unfair, but I know it has been done in these games and I raise no protest, I just do not do it.

Anyway most of our cash, which is not great, will need to be used to pay for research and some upgrades. We have enough Legions now to do damage, it is just that the enemy is not very close.

As to the temple, it can change be changed, if deemed appropriate, that is why I did not start it sooner, so I could be over ruled. The value of the Temple is that we will get to 30% and not be able to go above that level and the temple COULD let us keep one more citizen working.

This is useful, IF we want to make something like a small wonder. If we do not and will pop out settlers for some time, then I would switch.

Monarchy, what can I say we MUST get to it as soon as we can. Settlers will be easier to pop out, if we can get the extra food of tiles. The longer it takes, the more likely we are to get a bad anarchy number.

 

[Rodent]

Lurker's Comment- Could not resist .

Rome's Legions are Excellent UU's that last all the way up to cavalry

 

[Greebley]

Actually we haven't ever done systematic disconnects. If we can get away without doing it, it makes the game stronger, but as I mentioned to NP's worker on the beaches comment - at this level of difficulty we can do what we must.

In normal games I would discourage using the technique of switch back and forth as it does feel somewhat exploitive, though disconnecting Salt long term or waiting to connect to get pikes would be always be ok.

 

[I. Larkin]

I guess what I have not done well, is making my position clear.

1) Settlers we want and we need. I could do little about that during my set as I was very much concerned about incoming.

I reacted by making troops everywhere and getting most of the cats to the focal point. Moved workers out of the way and not worry a great deal about what they did, so long as they were A) safe and B) busy.

2) BTW 7 workers will cut a forest and road it in one turn and I wanted to get roads as rivers and forest are a double edge sword. Anyway at the end I could see we have enough to deal with the troops and could get some settlers, granaries and maybe other items going.

3) I never cut roads as I see it as unfair, but I know it has been done in these games and I raise no protest, I just do not do it.

4)Anyway most of our cash, which is not great, will need to be used to pay for research and some upgrades. We have enough Legions now to do damage, it is just that the enemy is not very close.

5) As to the temple, it can change be changed, if deemed appropriate, that is why I did not start it sooner, so I could be over ruled. The value of the Temple is that we will get to 30% and not be able to go above that level and the temple COULD let us keep one more citizen working.

6)This is useful, IF we want to make something like a small wonder. If we do not and will pop out settlers for some time, then I would switch.

7) Monarchy, what can I say we MUST get to it as soon as we can. Settlers will be easier to pop out, if we can get the extra food of tiles. The longer it takes, the more likely we are to get a bad anarchy number.

1) Via Granary in Neapolis or how?
2) Beg your pardon again.
3) see below
4) In which proportion?
5) So what first in Rome?
6) did not understand this. Do we want to build HE, say?
7) Anarchy may be long anyway. It is 400 AD already and we have many Cyties. See below
.
First, my comments are not a critics of vmxa turnset but attemts to see his "logistics". Espessially at "non trivial" moves. I did not have much experience playing with vmxa to verify at once is it "bright idea" or "small mistake", like Temple in Rome. Back to topic:

Rome's Legions are Excellent UU's that last all the way up to cavalry

In this game we may have 2 periods when we can make "advance" : After Legions before AI's GP, and some progress before AI's MT, that will be over vs Riflemen.
Second period is our Cavalery before AI's Infantry. I am afraid, that second period will be very short if will be at all. Clear, to have any chanses we have to capture TGL. We are so backward that we will loose by SS or Diplo. If TGL on another continent and not accessible by Galleys we may finish game and start new one. If it is somwhere near we may try to continue. This question so important that we may send Curragh/Galleys to find out "where it is" (TGL) and how advansed Japan now. With our current rate it is 60 turns to Monarchy and 470 to Military Traditions. In reality it may by 35 and 200 (say), but it is "order of magnitude". My :conclusion: is that we should try to capture TGL with Legioners. Now question "via Monarchy" or without?
Do we want Libs (In Rome first, instead of Temple) to speed up research or it is expensive investment? Do we want through any coin to research or we may upgrade something?
If we stay in Despotism do we want currency and Marketplaces in Best Cities?
Re: Connect/disconnect Iron: We may not connect / disconnect some Cities with Barrakcs to build Warriors.

 

[vmxa]

I. Larkin, don't worry about being critical, I can take it.

1) good question, it is always hard to make settlers in the core towns and we do not have many places to squeeze them out. AFAIK we only have one granary, so all settlers will be painful.

Neapolis does not have a granary, but IIRC it could get one, hopefully in Marks set.

3) I play by what ever rules Greebley says, it is his game. So if he say cut the roads, that is what I would do, otherwise it won't occur to me as I said I don't allow it in my own games.

4) I don't know how it will play out. If we in fact keep researching as I would expect for some time, I would not expect to upgrade any units, till we have knights. That only if we have horses, which I made 1.

In the main, we tend to not have a lot of cash for upgrades, till we get to hurting the AI later in the game and they supply us with some.

Some where down the line I am sure we will have a chance to do a few upgrades, but most of the units will be built by hand and most of the obsolete units will serve as MP's and not see action.

5) that will be up to mark. All I did was to give him options. IIRC we could make the HE in 17 as it sits, but sooner if it grew. We will not be able to use any leaders for at least the next 2 or 3 as we need the Pentagon and probably have enough towns for 1 or 2 more armies, so hand building may be the best bet.

6) should have been part of 5.

7) A map of this size could pull 5 turns with this many towns, it is a crap shoot, but the bigger we become, the more it is likely to be 7 or better.
It is not a big point, just an aside.

Understand, that these are just opinions and best guess, along with errors and stupidity. Sort like a brain storming session. You toss out some ideas and see if they will fly, not gospel.

 

[Northern Pike]

We are so backward that we will loose by SS or Diplo. If TGL on another continent and not accessible by Galleys we may finish game and start new one. If it is somwhere near we may try to continue.

I'm a great believer in building the GLib, but even so I consider this too pessimistic. These monster-map games are very different. The slow tech pace affects the AI civs too, and eventually we'll have hundreds of science camps, unlike our enemies. IIRC, we've never been in serious danger of losing to the UN or a launch in a 250 x 250 (or larger) AW game; if we aren't overwhelmed early, we win. Of course those prior games weren't at DG, but our margins of safety were substantial enough to give us some reason for confidence in this case.

What concerns me at the moment is that only three of our enemies may be on our landmass. If we're on a big island rather than a real continent, we may not have enough room for science camps, and our Legions may waste the last centuries of their effectiveness staring at the ocean. It seems strange to say it, but we need to see some Chinese and Viking stacks soon.

 

[vmxa]

That is my concern, we are on a large island, with just a few others. I am hoping that we were just put off on an area with no one real close to speak of, if not it will be hard work.

I almost mentioned the norm for these games is that the AI will come to a crawl on research, once they get into the Middle Age second tier techs and even more once they are war with us and never get peace.

I suspect that there is another land mass just a few tiles into the water, but not sure. Either the Chinese came around our land or across a coastal route. Vikes as well.

I doubt we could make enough galleys and send out enough units to take down a GLB site at DG, at this time. It is surely going to be in 3 rings. They will have pikes, probably other MA units, by the time we find them. Well will have to declare on all we met and will have to fight past who knows how many and we would need to send new 1 unit armies over to have a shot. Could be if they were a coastal nation.

I would now not be opposed to sending out a scout ship, to go around our land, but it would probably not get very far anyway.

The bottom line for me is that, IF we are on a continent or a very large island with at least 5 civs, would can make the progress we need. Any overseas action will be a nightmare until we at least have caravels.

We will soon be seeing more of our land as the armies are now able to go on the offense again, we may find that Japan is here, if not we will have to see what develops. These games are not cookie cutters, you have to evaluate your situation all the time.

I would not expect to lose by SS or UN. I have never had the AI even get to the modern age in a game like this all the way back to PTW 250x250 with 24 civs. The 650 tech rate is crushing for civs at war, even Sid level civs slow down.

Our rate will blow through the roof, once we get rails and can convert lots of towns to farms. Prior to that, farms are just ok as you need too many citizens to work in all but the most food rich places.

 

[markh]

reduce lux by 10, research down by 10

looks good

IBT : the 6 Indian swords step one tile nearer

1) 410AD : kill 2 Indian swords with 3rd army (2-0)
1st runs over a Mongol archer (3-0)
vet takes down a Mongol archer near Palmyra

uh, some units on automove ?

research down to 10%, myst still in one

IBT : myst in -> poly

The Mongols settle a town at the incense

2) 420AD : 3rd kills another Indian sword (4-0)
elite takes down one, too (5-0)
elite smacks another one (6-0)

2 spears go down in Hovd against our 2nd and the town is razed for 23 gold (8-0)

elite gets a Mongol spear - settler pair (9-0)

1st smashes a spear in Ta-Tu (10-0)

IBT : a Chinese archer is landed at Neapolis
a Mongol archer is landed in the West outside of our territory

3) 430AD : vet kills the landed Chinese archer (11-0)
elite takes down Indian sword North of Brundisium (12-0)
elite crushes Indian sword North of Brundisium (13-0)
elite smacks another one there (14-0)
elite hardly wins a fight against the next Indian sword (15-0)
elite kills Indian spear in that stack (16-0)
vet promotes elite on another Indian sword (17-0)
3rd kills the last sword and that stack is gone (18-0)

vet cleans up the last Indian sword of the previous stack (19-0)

elite kills an Indian sword in the woods of Teutoburg (20-0)

vet takes down the landed Mongol archer and promotes elite (21-0)

elite kills an Indian sword in noman's land (22-0)

found Gordion

IBT : nothing

4) 440AD : elite takes down a Mongol archer in the hills of Brundisium (23-0)

move 2 armies to Ta-Tu

IBT : nothing

5) 450AD : elite kills Mongol archer in the flat lands North of Brundisium (24-0)
elite takes down a Mongol spear at Aurelianorum (25-0)
1st reduces the city garrisons of Ta-Tu by 2 spears (27-0)
2nd smacks the remaining archer and razes the city for 16 gold and 4 slaves (28-0)

IBT : nothing

6) 460AD : elite takes down a Mongol archer in the hills of Brundisium (29-0)
elite kills another one there (30-0)
a third elite eliminates this small stack of the Mongols (31-0)
elite overruns another Mongol archer in the flatlands between us and the Mongols (32-0)

move out 3rd as there is not much for the army to defend

IBT : lose an exposed legion to a Mongol archer (32-1)
and a catapult due to a misclick

two silly mistakes.

7) 470AD : elite struggles to kill a Mongol warrior in noman's land (33-1)
reg smacks a Mongol archer near Ulaangom (34-1)
2nd overruns an Indian spear while escorting back the 4 slaves from Ta-Tu (35-1)
vet takes down another Mongol archer in the flatlands between us and the Mongols (36-1)

1st reveals Karakorum. It seems we are on a nice peninsula and there will be a very nice future choke point.

IBT : the AI is getting smart. The Indians have a spear catapult combo at Karakorum which moves out and bombards our army ????
a Mongol archer suicides on a legion doing no damage (37-1)

8) 480AD : 3rd kills two Indian spears near Palmyra (39-1)
vet takes down a Mongo spear at Aurelianorum (40-1)
another Indian spear dies near Palmyra (41-1)
2nd overruns another Indian spear while on escorting duties (42-1)
1st takes on the Indian spear - catapult combo to take the cat (43-1)

IBT : a Mongol archer dies attacking a legion promoting our legion elite (44-1)
another Mongol archer manages to kill a legion (44-2)

9) 490AD : 1st takes down a Mongol spear in Karakorum (45-2)
vet kills the Mongol archer that killed a legion in the interturn (46-2)
2nd smacks a Mongol spear, but goes red (47-2)

found Agrippina and Cyrene

IBT : nothing

10) 500AD : 3 rd kills a spear in Ulaangom (48-2)
vet kills another one (49-2)
vet takes down the remaining archer, razes the city for 12 gold, a slave and reclaims our catapult (50-2)

Poly comes in in 2. It is quite calm at the moment. All Indian units come through Karakorum. 2 Mongol cities are visiable. I started to move out units towards the choke. All armies are quite hurt and need to heal. As it is quite calm I started some libs.

Still no leader luck.

 

[vmxa]

Yeah, I mentioned that I sent two Legions to those towns just before the last town we had. They are not going out of our land and will not cross any interlopers, so automove is fine.

I was not sure how much would come that way and many of the galleys pass by those towns.

 

[markh]

Was just surprised about the automoves. Haven't seen this for a while.

 

[I. Larkin]

Got file. but have not seen yet. Will play later tomorrow after discussion.

 

[Northern Pike]

Good play , although our inability to generate Leaders is becoming absurd. This is the universe's way of telling us that we should have defaulted to the HE from the GLib.

Got file. but have not seen yet. Will play later tomorrow after discussion.

Actually, we're back to the normal rotation after a lot of skipping and swapping, so Greebley is up.

 

[vmxa]

Well we can build it in the mean time, but yeah we are way over due for a run of luck. I can't recall the odds, but I think it goes from 8.33% to 6.25%. Either way we should have gotten a few more, but they will come.

 

[I. Larkin]

Actually, we're back to the normal rotation after a lot of skipping and swapping, so Greebley is up.

I see. What I'd do is change to Granary in Neapol and poprush 2 turns after; and Poprush Granary in Auraelentorum now. It is also resonable to build Lib in Veli. Make Colony or build City on Inescence. Try to capture karakorum and set defence line there.

 

[Northern Pike]

I agree with switching to granaries in Neapolis and Aurelianorum, but only Aur. needs to pop-rush; Neapolis has enough shields to build its granary normally.

We already have incense, right next to Rome, so hooking up more doesn't matter much.

 

[vmxa]

I do not see much value in pop rushing it in Aurelianorum, with the current setup. It is +3 food and need 15 turns to get the shields, so it could plugged alone fine as is now.

Now, IF you were to take the wheat from the Cyrene and give it to Aurelianorum and then move a pop of the desert tile to it, then it may makes sense. You can then get more shields to speed the settlers (from being above size 6) or pop rush from time to time and then trade turns the wheat from time to time, if you want to go to that much work.

You even mine the wheat in an attempt to get an extra shield. If you cannot get more than 2 net shields, it does not need a granary.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, I was taking it for granted that we'd adjust the MM of Aurelianorum when we did the pop-rush, but I should have mentioned it.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it and will check out the granary situation in the towns mentioned.