GR23 - AWDG vs 30 Civs

[I. Larkin]

We found Byzantium in the SW,

Why? Obviously Central location toward point M is preferable.
Also it is resonable to hold M point.
Slaves BTW could build road, not just march "home".
Strength of Romans was not just Legions, but also Roman's Roads.
Still plenty remains in Europe.

 

[vmxa]

Weither "M" is better or not we have to consider that we will not want roads leading back, unless they are controlled by us. We often have to cut roads as a means of slowing down the incoming.

The location out there is too far away from the empire right now for us to deal with. All sides would be exposed. If we have to choose between a superior placement that is exposed and an inferior one that is safe, that is an easy call.

We have been swamped by incoing many times as we are unable to put up enough attackers to deal with the attackers/pilliagers coming from several nations.

Right now we do not have that, but it will increase as we met others. They will tend to have better units than us, in this game that will take some time as Legions are dual purpose.

Rome had strength in roads as they had military superiority, we won't be so lucky.

 

[Northern Pike]

Why? Obviously Central location toward point M is preferable.
Also it is resonable to hold M point.
Slaves BTW could build road, not just march "home".

Did you not read my report? I said that point M is a good city site, but it was the epicentre of the fighting during my round and founding there wasn't practical. Don't judge my options then by what you see on the screenshot now.

And also, we shouldn't be too eager to found third-ring cities which will always be somewhat corrupt while sites near the capital are still available.

As for roads, I did build a road on the mountain when the workers couldn't move at all. But building connected roads through hills we don't control yet is not only a slow, inefficient use of workers needed elsewhere, it's positively bad tactically, as Vmxa observes.

 

[I. Larkin]

Rome had strength in roads as they had military superiority, we won't be so lucky.

Now our army "strong" vs Mongol and France. I think we should move forward while it is the case.
Corrupted City could be a "base" to heal, good observation point it slow down enemies horses. Many wokers nearby also a benefit.
It is also "safer" to settle on the troops main stream. I think just 1 City toward (not near) M point may be resonable now. Road from M also would help to bring second wave of slaves faster (I'd rather step 1 tile down back and build road there). May be I too optimistic but I belive third wave will come soon...
Re: TGL Deli now "still build" GW, most probably they swich if have many schields invested. it may be up to 300. Deli not in the list of best Cities, so who knows.
But also somebody else could build TGL,
not only Indians. For FP we need 2 more Cities, I prefer FP, than HE. But Veli is not the best location for FP.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, it will be surprising if they don't switch to the GLib in Delhi. But your observation that Delhi isn't one of the top cities is mildly encouraging.

In AW the HE is so important that we generally favour it over the FP.

 

[vmxa]

Basically we don't really care where the FP is, just so it is built. We will probably not be able to make it in many places and hopefully will rush it with a leader. I prefer to get up in the core where it will safer, not safe, but safer.

It could be that this map is very favorable to us and we do not have many civs within range, other than the ones we have faced already. If so then all are precaution are unwarranted. It is just that in the past we have had our hands full at this stage.

It will take a fair amount of time for them to get fully geared up, but about now, they are going to have 10 or more towns making troops. Most will be made fairly quick and with several civs that can be a bunch.

Soon stacks of 6 or more will come and they will not be alone, so you get many many units in or near you. We have not had to deal with it so far as we had time and we were able to smash Joan and prevent her from sending lots of troops.

The others are out of range and we are not impacting them much. Killing units does not do much damage to a DG civ at war. So caution and fear are inexpensive, whereas greed and avarice can be painful.

 

[I. Larkin]

The others are out of range and we are not impacting them much. Killing units does not do much damage to a DG civ at war. So caution and fear are inexpensive, whereas greed and avarice can be painful.

I am tot about "avarice". It is difficult to predict exactly where Mongols and French core, but, obviously we have a good chance to run fast there and kill them all.
However, may be, they are natural buffer for us and killing them will open new flow of another AIs, dont know. Probably I intuitevly follow Regent AW scheme when the matter was to destroy AI's core ASAP. Main difficulty there was to transfer troops fast enough from our core to their core. Roads will help a lot.
Really, real damage to AI is to kill settlers and destroy Cities. I think we may finish France soon and turn to Mongols.

 

[vmxa]

In all levels killing cities is the key and faster is better. AWR is not very applicable to this game. In AWR, you can rely on the AI not to be able to replace losses faster than you can kill them.

Here we cannot get by with that. Killing settlers hurts them, but not fatal, unless you also raze towns. The thing is we have not had to face down any large numbers.

This is because we have few nations to fight, we should have more like 5 or so at this point, with this much land exposed. So we may be able to play this like it was AWM, but if we do and there are a few more civs around the corner, we will be hurt.

Basically you cannot stand up to 6 civs at this point, so everything we do is predicated upon the idea that we are going to see more soon. If in fact it is much later, than are caution will not matter.

What will matter is that we get armies up and lots of towns. Eventually we have to kill 30 nations with a 30% bonus.

So we want to kill them quickly, but we cannot afford to over extend, that will be fatal. Being a bit late to kill them won't be. Once we get up 6 armies, we should be able to handle what ever comes our way, unless it a harsh map.

IOW if we do not have a key resource.

The biggest thing to me is to not find more friends, until we are stronger and have done more damage to the ones we now have. If we run into another civs, ok, but if we run into 3 or 4 in short order, that is not so good.

 

[I. Larkin]

Ok, let me put it in a questons then:
1) Where our next Cities will be?
2) How road network will look?
I think at first instance we may want Rome - Paris "fast route."

Oh, forgot McMg at preturn:
Pisa on sugar, Pompei on Pisa's plain, Cuma on Pompeis GL (instead of forest.)

 

[Greebley]

I got it.

 

[ThERat]

may I request to play my turn after Greebley since I am going for holidays? If no, that's also fine

Yes, we're so primitive over here you won't have a chance of getting online.

It's not that of course, but this time I doubt I will be in the mood to check out things online...rather enjoy the scenery of your west coast

 

[vmxa]

Not sure where we are on the rooster, but I see no problem form my end ThERat.

 

[Greebley]

may I request to play my turn after Greebley since I am going for holidays? If no, that's also fine

Actually, ThERat, just go ahead and play first. That way you can be sure to get your turn in and the timing will be better for me anyway.

 

[Northern Pike]

It's not that of course, but this time I doubt I will be in the mood to check out things online...rather enjoy the scenery of your west coast

Sure--I find that my online time drops to almost nothing when I travel too.

The west coast should be superb at this season as long as you get some sun--the usual trade-off anywhere north of California.

 

[ThERat]

Pre-Turn
didn't really read new input on the merges, so I merge one worker
palace down to 10 turns

IT Rome gets another legion, set to spear -> settler to time with growth
India starts Great Library in Delhi...

1. 170BC
defeat a French settler pair with army and use the army to cover all the slaves
defeat Mongol archer with legion

IT we get a couple more legions

2.150BC
China has shown up with a galley, they know literature as well and have 10 cities
declare war, send out army after Rouen
join another workers into Veii and palace is now at 7 turns

3. 130BC
defeat archer on the way to Choyr, kill French spear and get elite promotion
smash 2 spears and auto raze Rouen and capture 5 slaves !!!
lose elite archer but defeat 1 archer and a spear

IT Mongols attack and actually kill a legion on flat that covered an e legion

4. 110BC
defeat that red archer with e legion
defeat 2 spears in Choyr and army is red

IT even a redlined army is too much for Mongols and they don't attack
we get literature

5. 90BC
Glib is 10 turns away and maths takes 8 turns, go for that
healthy army takes out a French settler trio
take out 3 French archers and found Brundisium on hills

6. 70BC
move 2 more settlers towards the front
attack Orleans and surprisingly capture the city after killing only 1 spear
it's a great spot for fast growth, however, I don't want to lock the army, decide to raze city
and net 2 slaves, defeat Mongol archer in the woods

our GA is over and I increase lux to 20% to prevent riots
decrease science as we have too much deficit

IT Mongols start Glib as well

7. 50BC
Korea shows up with a warrior/settler as well, they have 14 cities
army defeats another settler pair but there are 2 more in sight..too many to defeat them all

IT Mongols come forward in numbers, retreat a horse with legion

8. 30BC
found Syracuse and Teutoburg
increase science to 80% to match maths with the Glib
take out 6 assorted units here and there, defeat Korean setler pair and the army now covers 6 slaves
attack Ereen but lose 1 legion ad fail to raze town

IT lose yet another legion against a horse...we get the FP message

do we know Japan??? well well we had 8 turns to go
Korea starts Sun Tzu

9. 10BC
I need to try and get a MGL so we can rush switch to the pentagon if we want

first kill a settler pair to make it 8 slaves, leader fishing is unsuccessful and I lose an elite as well in the process of taking out 4 units

I leave the decision to the team whether we switch to HE or FP
I also leave a settler with is movement as we can decide where to settle next

the good news is we have 33+8 slaves, that's pretty impressive

 

[vmxa]

Well it was going to be hard to get the GLB in this type of game. I would go for FP. We need the higher OCN and we can get the HE with another leader at some point.

WE are military anyway, so have a boost to promotions. With the new friends, this game will start to heat up, especially with many going into middle age.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it.

I agree on FP.

 

[I. Larkin]

Again draw attention to build straight road say from Ravena straght North. France is a toast and to brings slaves home and settle there road will help. City may be 5 N from Ravena, but it is not that important. Yes, FP will give immediate impact...
Why not to research Pottery and build some Granaries?

 

[vmxa]

Going with Math to get cats, if we do not get some, we will get eaten alive. We have to be able to ping some of those horses and soon to be knights to get them where they either retreat or can be killed.

As you know, kill ratio is critical in these games. We cannot take lots of losses and replace them with so many enemies. Armies and cats is our best shot at high ratio.

Not sure about the road, I just would go in what ever direction is the one we can control best. What you tend to see in these games (high level AW like AWDG or AWD) is the incoming dictate where, when and if yo can plant towns and keep them. So far we are below expectations on incoming as we did not met many civs, but we are starting to pick up more friends.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'm glad we gave the GLib a full shot; it's the rational play. The game now becomes an ideal test case of whether we can win at these settings without the GLib, since our position is so favourable.

If the FP is the consensus default build in Veii, that's fine; but for the record, I disagree. What we really want is to get both the HE and the FP built as quickly as possible, and the HE would bring us closer to the FP by getting us more leaders, but the process doesn't work in the other direction. Also, as IL observed, Veii is not a very good FP location--not because of the town's position relative to our whole empire, which doesn't matter in Conquests (Vmxa's point), but because the FP's effect in making its own city uncorrupt will be wasted there.

Vmxa is right of course that we'll need Math/cats before long, but when Pottery/granaries only requires four turns of research, I'd choose that first. We badly need to start getting our settlers from towns with granaries.